What is NATO for then?

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plodder
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What is NATO for then?

Post by plodder » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:28 am

Post Cold War and against a backdrop of some people in the EU talking about a combined European military capability there’s clearly a constant need for NATO to demonstrate its relevance.

It’s very vocal about allowing Ukraine and Scandinavian states from joining which is obviously a challenging stance for the Kremlin regardless of why we ended up where we are. Should NATO try and cool things down? Should it be reformed? Do we even need it anymore given how influential the US is in NATO? Or given the rise of India and China is it still relevant?

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:44 am

NATO exists for the mutual defence of its members. Happy to help.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by temptar » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:56 am

plodder wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:28 am
Post Cold War and against a backdrop of some people in the EU talking about a combined European military capability there’s clearly a constant need for NATO to demonstrate its relevance.

It’s very vocal about allowing Ukraine and Scandinavian states from joining which is obviously a challenging stance for the Kremlin regardless of why we ended up where we are. Should NATO try and cool things down? Should it be reformed? Do we even need it anymore given how influential the US is in NATO? Or given the rise of India and China is it still relevant?
And you care about upsetting the Kremlin why?

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by bjn » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:06 pm

plodder wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:28 am
Post Cold War and against a backdrop of some people in the EU talking about a combined European military capability there’s clearly a constant need for NATO to demonstrate its relevance.

It’s very vocal about allowing Ukraine and Scandinavian states from joining which is obviously a challenging stance for the Kremlin regardless of why we ended up where we are. Should NATO try and cool things down? Should it be reformed? Do we even need it anymore given how influential the US is in NATO? Or given the rise of India and China is it still relevant?
So Russia should have a veto on what Scandinavian states choose to do with regard to their own affairs? That's 19thC 'spheres of influence' b.llsh.t.

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Martin Y
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Martin Y » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:19 pm

It's a mutual defence pact against Russian aggression. People were asking questions about whether it was still needed until Russia invaded Ukraine. Trump for instance seemed quite keen to ditch it. It looks like a bit of a contrarian hot take to remain unsure after Russia has helpfully demonstrated that, yes, it's still needed.

Do you feel that it's somehow bullying Russia to join a group which promise to defend each other if Russia attacks them?

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Opti » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:28 pm

f.ck sake, we've already got 2 threads containing Putin apologetics. Surely we don't need more.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by jimbob » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:29 pm

Plodder, the counties of the former Soviet Union seceed from the USSR because of the experience being ruled by Moscow.

Since Putin came to power, he's succeeded in destabilising many of the countries in the former USSR, and attempted to destabilise the Baltic States including cyberattacks on Estonia and kidnapping border guards.

Both Sweden and Finland had majorities in favour of continued neutrality until Russia invaded Ukraine. Now they have firm majorities in favour of joining NATO.

Ask yourself why countries that experienced Russian imperialism want to join a defensive alliance against an expansionist Russia.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by TopBadger » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:34 pm

If we're doing end of year awards then I'd like to nominate this for the "Dumbest OP" award.
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:52 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:44 am
NATO exists for the mutual defence of its members. Happy to help.
Defence is a pretty vague term. Worth noting that many of NATO's activities have been much wider than defending its members from attack.

For example past missions like the 2011 air campaign against Qaddafi forces in Libya, counter-piracy operations off the Horn of Africa, of the deployment of troops to North Macedonia (as it was called then). Similarly there are current missions like the force deployed in Kosovo, support for the African Union peacekeeping mission in Somalia, or the NATO training mission in Iraq.

People can read the full list here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52060.htm

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by TopBadger » Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:00 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:52 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:44 am
NATO exists for the mutual defence of its members. Happy to help.
Defence is a pretty vague term. Worth noting that many of NATO's activities have been much wider than defending its members from attack.

For example past missions like the 2011 air campaign against Qaddafi forces in Libya, counter-piracy operations off the Horn of Africa, of the deployment of troops to North Macedonia (as it was called then). Similarly there are current missions like the force deployed in Kosovo, support for the African Union peacekeeping mission in Somalia, or the NATO training mission in Iraq.

People can read the full list here: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_52060.htm
How the f.ck is defence a vague term?

No doubt NATO's capabilities (primarily co-ordination of multinational military forces) have been used at the behest of it's members and the UN for things other than defence... but what it exists for is crystal clear.
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by headshot » Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:18 pm

TopBadger wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:34 pm
If we're doing end of year awards then I'd like to nominate this for the "Dumbest OP" award.
Seconded.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:49 pm

NATO is defensive.

NAFO, on the other hand...

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Herainestold » Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:58 am

NATO exists to keep Soviets/Russia in a box.
Putin wants to break the box/ pull other states into the box.
Some states want to be outside the box (in EU or NATO). Some feel more comfortable next to Russia (Georgia, Kazakhstan, etc.)

If Russia had buffer states against NATO, it would not feel threatened.

The value of NATO for the states that want it, has to be balanced against the fear it produces in Russia. That fear is very unstabilizing,and may cause Putin to reach for the Big Red Button.
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Chris Preston » Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:25 am

Herainestold wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:58 am
Some feel more comfortable next to Russia (Georgia, Kazakhstan, etc.)
LOL.

This would be the reason why Georgia has been trying to join NATO for the last 20 years.
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bob sterman
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by bob sterman » Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:29 am

NATO does not exist/function simply to defend member states from direct military attack by Russia or other countries.

The history of actual NATO military action clearly shows that - Bosnia, Kosovo, Libya.

Not commenting on whether these interventions were right or wrong - but they were in principle efforts to enforce UN security council resolutions, rather than to defend NATO member states from direct armed attack.

NATO now has a much broader focus than it did during the Cold War. As set out in The Alliance's Strategic Concept (1999)...

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/offi ... _27433.htm

If people want to know "what NATO is for" this document sets that out.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by TopBadger » Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:53 am

*Sigh*

What NATO was created for and why it exists is a mutual defensive pact. That much is crystal clear.

No doubt its capabilities (multinational military coordination) were put to other uses during the 1990's when the cold war was "won" and Russia appeared to be much less of a threat. But that does not change anything in the paragraph above.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine is proof positive that NATO is still needed, and was created for all the right reasons.
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by TopBadger » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:01 am

Herainestold wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:58 am

The value of NATO for the states that want it, has to be balanced against the fear it produces in Russia.
On a similar note, should houses that want them have to balance their burglar alarms and funding for the police against the fear they produce in criminals who want to rob them?

No. You utter moron.
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Martin_B » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:13 am

Herainestold wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:58 am
If Russia had buffer states against NATO, it would not feel threatened.
Russia had buffer states in Eastern Europe, where they placed troops. This led to the creation of NATO.

After WW2, history went:
- NATO didn't exist
- The Soviet Union has expansionist ideas into Eastern Europe and occupied them
- Western Europe founded a defensive treaty to counter these threats and it was called NATO
- When the Soviet Union broke up, some of these Eastern European countries didn't want to be occupied by the Soviets/Russia again so wanted to join NATO.
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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:47 am

Martin_B wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:13 am
Herainestold wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:58 am
If Russia had buffer states against NATO, it would not feel threatened.
Russia had buffer states in Eastern Europe, where they placed troops. This led to the creation of NATO.

After WW2, history went:
- NATO didn't exist
- The Soviet Union has expansionist ideas into Eastern Europe and occupied them
- Western Europe founded a defensive treaty to counter these threats and it was called NATO
- When the Soviet Union broke up, some of these Eastern European countries didn't want to be occupied by the Soviets/Russia again so wanted to join NATO.
It's very important to remember that NATO is a voluntary organisation. That countries have had to push to get in, and indeed haven't always been admitted when they should have been.

The Warsaw Pact, by contrast, was very much not a voluntary organisation.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Imrael » Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:38 pm

Worth mentioning that life in a Russian "buffer state" varies between somewhat sh.t and very sh.t indeed.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:02 pm

Imrael wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:38 pm
Worth mentioning that life in a Russian "buffer state" varies between somewhat sh.t and very sh.t indeed.
This. Also, buffer states are a fundamentally imperialist concept.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by dyqik » Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:47 pm

And Russia doesn't appear to want to have anything to do with defending them - see e.g. Armenia, invaded by Azerbaijan in the past few years, with territory permanently lost.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:52 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:47 pm
And Russia doesn't appear to want to have anything to do with defending them - see e.g. Armenia, invaded by Azerbaijan in the past few years, with territory permanently lost.
If Armenia were safe and secure, then Russia wouldn't be able to use their vulnerability to get their hooks into them.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by Sciolus » Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:06 pm

Some people would benefit from a visit to the war museums in Tallinn, Riga and Vilnius. When people welcome being invaded by Hitler early in WW2 because at least he kicked out the Soviet invaders, you know that being invaded by Stalin was pretty grim.

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Re: What is NATO for then?

Post by IvanV » Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:52 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:58 am
If Russia had buffer states against NATO, it would not feel threatened.
"Feeling threatened" is a manufactured position. For thousands of years, authoritarian leader have been aware of the convenience of having an enemy. If they haven't got one, they invent one.

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