Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

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Sciolus
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by Sciolus » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:06 pm

noggins wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:04 pm
But,, of course Fujitsu could alter accounts. You can't design and run a database without super-duper-admin rights.
The issue is the governance of the access.
Gotta disagree with this. The only access Fujitsu should have had to the live database was for code updates through an authorised procedure. These should never have changed any data held in the database. Any anomalies in the data should have been fixed through a specific process controlled by accountants, not software developers. Random devs being able to change data in the live system, as actually happened, is absolutely unforgivable.

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by sTeamTraen » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:58 pm

noggins wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:34 pm
There is no evidence that Fujitsu's interventions were causing the actual shortfall.

Rather, there were shitloads of bugs, some of which managed to come to the attention of Fujitsu, who then flailed around firefighing them , with no proper control...

....and therefore the POs mantra that Horizon was infallible was complete and utter bollocks.
So basically (if I've understood correctly), if Fujitsu hadn't been fixing lots of problems overnight, the "theft" problem could have appeared to be 10x worse. But they could presumably only fix transactions where they had enough peripheral information to reconstruct what should have happened. Lots would have slipped through the cracks.

And I can easily see how this could be spun from "Yes, there are lots of bugs" to "Yes, there are lots of bugs, but our hard-working techs fix every bad transaction overnight, so anything that is left is fraud". :roll:
Sciolus wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:06 pm
Gotta disagree with this. The only access Fujitsu should have had to the live database was for code updates through an authorised procedure. These should never have changed any data held in the database. Any anomalies in the data should have been fixed through a specific process controlled by accountants, not software developers. Random devs being able to change data in the live system, as actually happened, is absolutely unforgivable.
Do we know they were devs, as opposed to data centre ops staff?
Something something hammer something something nail

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by noggins » Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:36 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:06 pm
noggins wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:04 pm
But,, of course Fujitsu could alter accounts. You can't design and run a database without super-duper-admin rights.
The issue is the governance of the access.
Gotta disagree with this. The only access Fujitsu should have had to the live database was for code updates through an authorised procedure. These should never have changed any data held in the database. Any anomalies in the data should have been fixed through a specific process controlled by accountants, not software developers. Random devs being able to change data in the live system, as actually happened, is absolutely unforgivable.
On reflection you are right.

The wider point is that the POs response to questions on the reliability wasn't “bugs and discrepancies are resolved by [insert industry standard processes] “ but “INCONCEIVABLE !!”

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Stranger Mouse
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:39 pm

More fun in Channel 4 tonight.

Thread here but for me the link isn’t working https://x.com/channel4news/status/17751 ... 80547?s=61
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by jimbob » Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:29 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:39 pm
More fun in Channel 4 tonight.

Thread here but for me the link isn’t working https://x.com/channel4news/status/17751 ... 80547?s=61
Non twitter link from within that tweet
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive ... appearence
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by Stranger Mouse » Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:57 pm

jimbob wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:29 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:39 pm
More fun in Channel 4 tonight.

Thread here but for me the link isn’t working https://x.com/channel4news/status/17751 ... 80547?s=61
Non twitter link from within that tweet
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive ... appearence
Strange that link started working for me shortly after I posted. I think it was their end
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by jimbob » Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:48 am

Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:57 pm
jimbob wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:29 pm
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:39 pm
More fun in Channel 4 tonight.

Thread here but for me the link isn’t working https://x.com/channel4news/status/17751 ... 80547?s=61
Non twitter link from within that tweet
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive ... appearence
Strange that link started working for me shortly after I posted. I think it was their end
B...b...but that would only be plausible if the owner of Twitter had turned into a dumpster fire with dodgy IT support.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by Stranger Mouse » Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:21 am

jimbob wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:48 am
Stranger Mouse wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:57 pm
jimbob wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:29 pm

Non twitter link from within that tweet
https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive ... appearence
Strange that link started working for me shortly after I posted. I think it was their end
B...b...but that would only be plausible if the owner of Twitter had turned into a dumpster fire with dodgy IT support.
lol. To be fair to Musk, if I remember correctly it came up with page not found on the Channel 4 site. Musk is still a tw.t though.
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by snoozeofreason » Sun Apr 21, 2024 8:36 pm

Before Horizon was introduced, some sub-postmasters used a system known as Capture. Computer Weekly reports that Jason Coyne a digital forensic investigator who testified to failings in the Horizon System over 20 years ago has offered to analyse the Capture system, which has also been implicated in potential wrongful convictions. Campaigners have apparently obtained floppy disks containing the Capture Software.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by jimbob » Fri May 03, 2024 11:57 am

FFS.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/post- ... 93.article



Lawyers for the Post Office arranged a secret meeting with a judge to prevent disclosure to defence solicitors in a criminal trial, the Post Office Inquiry heard yesterday. Solicitor Martin Smith and his barrister colleague Simon Clarke met the judge at Birmingham Crown Court in 2013 on the eve of a trial of a sub-postmaster accused of theft.

The prosecuting lawyers applied for public interest immunity on the report, successfully persuading the judge that the defence solicitors should not be made aware of it.
‘Such a [note] may well invite a request for disclosure of the test results,’ Smith had emailed a colleague. ‘There may also be a risk that [Thomas] will suggest the investigation was inadequate or incomplete.’
Um yes?
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by Tristan » Fri May 03, 2024 1:35 pm

Post office lawyer tries to claim that in 2010 he didn't know how to save a document. https://x.com/ruddick/status/1786346584122216492

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by tenchboy » Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm

Tristan wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 1:35 pm
Post office lawyer tries to claim that in 2010 he didn't know how to save a document. https://x.com/ruddick/status/1786346584122216492
Yeah, I saw that I just wanted so badly to be the chappy asking the questions so as to be able t say, "Mate! Even my mum knows how to save a document" And then go on to ask who saved all the other documents on his computer and also whether he disclosed this failing at his job interview.
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by tenchboy » Sat May 04, 2024 8:28 am

tenchboy wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm
Tristan wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 1:35 pm
Post office lawyer tries to claim that in 2010 he didn't know how to save a document. https://x.com/ruddick/status/1786346584122216492
Yeah, I saw that I just wanted so badly to be the chappy asking the questions so as to be able t say, "Mate! Even my mum knows how to save a document" And then go on to ask who saved all the other documents on his computer and also whether he disclosed this failing at his job interview.
Is it worse that he thought people would actually believe that?
Maybe he panicked he knew the game was up and just blurted out any old bollocks to try to save himself.
If you want me Steve, just Snapchat me yeah? You know how to Snapchap me doncha Steve? You just...

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by Grumble » Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am

With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by snoozeofreason » Sat May 04, 2024 10:06 am

tenchboy wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 8:28 am
tenchboy wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm
Tristan wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 1:35 pm
Post office lawyer tries to claim that in 2010 he didn't know how to save a document. https://x.com/ruddick/status/1786346584122216492
Yeah, I saw that I just wanted so badly to be the chappy asking the questions so as to be able t say, "Mate! Even my mum knows how to save a document" And then go on to ask who saved all the other documents on his computer and also whether he disclosed this failing at his job interview.
Is it worse that he thought people would actually believe that?
Maybe he panicked he knew the game was up and just blurted out any old bollocks to try to save himself.
The lawyer in question is Jarnail Singh. His appearance at the enquiry in December last year was equally bizarre. His attempts to distance himself from an email he sent by claiming it was dictated to him (along with the distribution list, which consists of a set of people he claims not to know) is particularly worth reading.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by jimbob » Sat May 04, 2024 11:28 am

From ISF
Jack by the hedge wrote:Well, just because the computer shows the lawyer received the email and read the email and printed the email and wrote a response quoting the email, we have to consider it might just be the computer that made a mistake. Computers aren't flawless, you know. [/sarcasm]
https://www.internationalskeptics.com/f ... st14314695
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by dyqik » Sat May 04, 2024 3:11 pm

Grumble wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am
With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
Ctrl+s

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by jimbob » Sat May 04, 2024 5:35 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 3:11 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am
With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
Ctrl+s
I tend to use F12 which gets me to more like the file manager route.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by Gfamily » Sat May 04, 2024 5:57 pm

jimbob wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 5:35 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 3:11 pm
Grumble wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 9:40 am
With the advent of Microsoft 365 I’m no longer sure if I know how to save a document.
Ctrl+s
I tend to use F12 which gets me to more like the file manager route.
Yes, more useful, particularly since opening an attachment document assigns it to a semi random*, often hidden, temporary system folder, and saving it there is about as useful as having it in a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by snoozeofreason » Thu May 09, 2024 7:58 pm

snoozeofreason wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 10:06 am
tenchboy wrote:
Sat May 04, 2024 8:28 am
tenchboy wrote:
Fri May 03, 2024 4:45 pm


Yeah, I saw that I just wanted so badly to be the chappy asking the questions so as to be able t say, "Mate! Even my mum knows how to save a document" And then go on to ask who saved all the other documents on his computer and also whether he disclosed this failing at his job interview.
Is it worse that he thought people would actually believe that?
Maybe he panicked he knew the game was up and just blurted out any old bollocks to try to save himself.
The lawyer in question is Jarnail Singh. His appearance at the enquiry in December last year was equally bizarre. His attempts to distance himself from an email he sent by claiming it was dictated to him (along with the distribution list, which consists of a set of people he claims not to know) is particularly worth reading.
The last ten minutes of Singh's May 3 appearance, in which he is cross-examined by Angela Patrick are also interesting (from 1:06 in this video). She takes him over a meeting that took place to discuss prosecutions that were live at the time of the publication of the Second Sight draft report in 2013, which revealed bugs in Horizon. Contemporaneous notes record Singh as having agreed to a decision to seek a public interest immunity certificate to prevent disclosure of this information to defence lawyers. Singh tries to deny having any understanding of this decision and seems to want the inquiry to believe that he doesn't really understand in any detail what a PII certificate is. His qualifications for his role as a senior criminal lawyer at PO seem to be that he doesn't know much about criminal law, or saving files, or anything really.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by headshot » Wed May 22, 2024 12:00 pm

Paula Vennells has broken down in tears and has admitted that the evidence she gave to MPs wasn’t true.

You can turn off the waterworks Paula. People had their lives completely ruined by your b.llsh.t.

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by jimbob » Wed May 22, 2024 12:02 pm

headshot wrote:
Wed May 22, 2024 12:00 pm
Paula Vennells has broken down in tears and has admitted that the evidence she gave to MPs wasn’t true.

You can turn off the waterworks Paula. People had their lives completely ruined by your b.llsh.t.
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/post- ... 64.article
Former Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells expressed frustration that her general counsel put professional obligations above the interests of the business, the public inquiry into the Horizon scandal has heard.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:48 am

Amazingly, it still keeps on managing to get worse...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd110nl7dppo
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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by snoozeofreason » Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:20 pm

There have been a couple of interesting tangential developments from the Post Office scandal. The first is that a spotlight has been thrown on other organisations that operate as private prosecutors. In particular, rail operators have been making extensive use of the Single Justice Procedure to bring prosecutions for fare evasion under the Regulation of Railways Act. It looks as if they aren't allowed to do that, and around 75,000 convictions are likely to be quashed (and yes, all the zeroes in that figure are meant to be there, and the comma is in the right place). It is likely that the cases involve defendants who pleaded guilty, and probably were guilty but, as the Chief Magistrate has pointed out "Innocent until proven guilty is only really as good as the process, and you can’t have undue process to get there."

The other development is that, as I mentioned earlier, questions are now being asked about prosecutions related to the Capture system, which was the predecessor of Horizon. The government have now appointed a firm of forensic accountants (Kroll, this time, rather than Second Sight) to investigate.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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Re: Post office Horizon scandal just got worse

Post by snoozeofreason » Sat Jun 22, 2024 12:47 pm

Yesterday the PO Enquiry heard some properly weird testimony from George Thomson, former CEO of the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters (BBC summary here, YouTube video of testimony here). He still maintains that Horizon was robust, blames the PO for failing to defend it more forcefully, and clearly colluded with the PO to deter sub-postmasters from taking part in the Bates vs the PO group litigation order.

Just for clarity, the National Federation of Sub-Postmasters is meant to defend the interests of sub-postmasters.
In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them. The human body was knocked up pretty late on the Friday afternoon, with a deadline looming. How well do you expect it to work?

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