NZ new restrictions on tobacco

[IvanV]

Guardian article

People born from 2009 onwards will never be able to buy tobacco legally, as the age restriction will rise year by year. Vaping will remain legal, so it doesn't amount to a complete ban on nicotine usage for that generation.

Is this folly? Many countries are talking about the value of legalising other psycho-active and addictive drugs, because of the damage caused by the criminal market in those substances, and the difficulty addicts have in obtaining help for their problem given the criminalisation of what they are doing. It doesn't amount to complete prohibition as you can still vape nicotine, so perhaps it isn't quite the uncontainable clampdown on other drugs, or the folly of alcohol prohibition in the past in the USA.

I got the impression when visiting the place several times 20-30 years ago that New Zealand is a country where cannabis is pretty popular, widely cultivated, and widely tolerated, despite its illegality. But it seems that isn't the majority position. A referendum in 2020 resulted in a small majority against decriminalisation. Probably I didn't encounter very much of the more conservative elements of NZ society in my general manner of tourism mainly by bicycle, staying in backpacker hostels and campsites.

[IvanV]

Usual mistake.

[lpm]

Few young people are interested in nicotine now smoking is so strongly associated with being a loser.

It's just scum capitalism exploiting the poor, vulnerable and gullible - and kids today can see right through it.

[Martin Y]

Kids 50 years ago could see through it too, but then they got a few years older and being cool and rebellious seemed more important. I guess they have tattoos for that now.

[monkey]

Few young people are interested in nicotine now smoking is so strongly associated with being a loser.

It's just scum capitalism exploiting the poor, vulnerable and gullible - and kids today can see right through it.

This is not true. The study I remember seeing on the subject suggested that nicotine use among high school students has been steady in recent years, but cigarettes are being replaced with vaping.

[lpm]

Kids 50 years ago could see through it too, but then they got a few years older and being cool and rebellious seemed more important. I guess they have tattoos for that now.

Exactly, tattoos are the direct replacement of smoking.

The way for young people to be utterly conformist, copy everyone else, yet consider themselves edgy and cool.

A big step forward, instead of cancer and heart disease the long term effect of tattoos is merely ugly skin.

[lpm]

Few young people are interested in nicotine now smoking is so strongly associated with being a loser.

It's just scum capitalism exploiting the poor, vulnerable and gullible - and kids today can see right through it.

This is not true. The study I remember seeing on the subject suggested that nicotine use among high school students has been steady in recent years, but cigarettes are being replaced with vaping.

Because young people are embarrassed to be seen with a cigarette, but vaping has a bit of a tech vibe.

It's never about the tobacco, it's about image.

[Bird on a Fire]

Nah, nicotine is enjoyable, and probably more so in vape form for inexperienced users. I don't think the people who domesticated tobacco 3000+ years ago in Mexico did so because they were just edgy kids trying to look cool.

NZ haven't exactly banned a popular drug, just a particularly harmful delivery mechanism. Seems like a good idea. I'd be surprised if there was enough demand for the burning-tobacco method over vapes to fuel a significant black market.

[Millennie Al]

If the restrictions work, it'll be because they are unnecessary. If they don't work, we're in the realm of prohibition and its consequential stimulus to crime.

[Woodchopper]

New Zealand's youth vaping crisis clouds smoke-free future

[…]

New Zealand is on target to becoming smoke-free by 2025. This means being cigarette and tobacco free and that's where vaping comes in. For long-term adult smokers, it's seen as a less harmful alternative but the flipside to that is the exponential rise and accessibility of vaping to teenagers and at times younger children.

According to data released last year, the number of teenagers in New Zealand who vaped regularly had tripled between 2019 and 2021.

The government has defended vaping, arguing that evidence is growing that vaping can help people quit smoking. But at the same time it has acknowledged the sharp rise in youth vaping, and has implemented new rules.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-66448563

[lpm]

At last we are going to copy NZ.

Every country should have done it years ago.

[WFJ]

Why further expand a policy that's failed to produce any harm reduction in the last 50 years to tobacco when the reduced social acceptance and increased hassle of smoking is already killing it as a habit?

Making all tobacco containing products pharmacy only, now and for buyers of all ages, would make more sense.

[Iron Magpie]

I cannot help but wonder how this will look in 30 years time when the 45 year old can buy something the 44 year old cannot. Or even in 10 years when the 25 year old etc etc.....At that point I think we will see a massive fail in yet another experiment with creeping prohibition.

[bjn]

Meh. Nicotine addicts will still be able to get their fix from vapes.

[Iron Magpie]

Meh. Nicotine addicts will still be able to get their fix from vapes.

I think the continued failure of NRT products to reduce smoking show that it isn't just about being addicted to nicotine. Like all addictions it is always abmctt. I good way of finding this out is to try and replace your morning coffee or tea with pro plus tablets. Same main addictive ingredient yet somehow it would never have the same appeal because it's.....abmctt.

[Woodchopper]

The New Zealand plan has been cancelled by the new government.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... SApp_Other

[lpm]

At last we are going to copy NZ.

Every country should have done it years ago.

Finally this Conservative government gets something good done.

[jimbob]

At last we are going to copy NZ.

Every country should have done it years ago.

Finally this Conservative government gets something good done.

And needed Labour support to get past Tory rebels

[Boustrophedon]

Few young people are interested in nicotine now smoking is so strongly associated with being a loser.

It's just scum capitalism exploiting the poor, vulnerable and gullible - and kids today can see right through it.

Yeah right, that's why they're all vaping instead.

[Boustrophedon]

So the time will come when Joe is able to buy tobacco, but Bob, who is a year younger, won't, how's that supposed to work then? Will everyone who wants to buy tobacco have to carry age specific ID? Won't Joe just buy it for Bob? All this will do is exactly the opposite of their voiced intention of not encouraging a black market.

In my experience teaching, kids have no problem sourcing baccy, vapes or in one case I remember snuff, how is the proposed legislation going to make any real difference?

[TopBadger]

Bans don't need to be 100% effective to be beneficial overall.

[IvanV]

At last we are going to copy NZ.

Every country should have done it years ago.

Finally this Conservative government gets something good done.

And needed Labour support to get past Tory rebels

I see the DUP were among the relatively small number who voted against it.

They say that they are not opposing further restrictions on smoking, but rather that the measures need to be made workable. They say they will be proposing amendments to make it workable. I'll take this at face value for now, though often often you can't take things at face value from the DUP.

It is unusual for me to think there might be anything in what the DUP says. But in view of the problems prohibitions of various intoxicating and narcotic substances have presented and continue to present, workability is an important factor. Northern Ireland's situation is potentially distinctive, because paramilitary organisations and the like tend to fund themselves through some parts of the black economy, although they also sometimes act as vigilante enforcers against some other parts of the black economy. I could imagine cigarette smuggling might be a part of the black economy more easily accessible to and acceptable to such organisations.

One of the ills of prohibition has been the actions of organised crime to serve the repressed demand. Another major social ill is the crime by the addicts to obtain the money to service their expensive addictions. I hope the latter will not be an issue specifically in relation to tobacco, when nicotine-containing vapes will remain legal and available. But with tobacco in practice in wide availability, at least for a long time, it will probably not be difficult for individuals prohibited from smoking cigarettes and the like to obtain them if they want to, and for the criminals who supply them to take a nice margin.

[lpm]

So the time will come when Joe is able to buy tobacco, but Bob, who is a year younger, won't, how's that supposed to work then?

Bob will be less likely to want to buy tobacco, because he will be less likely to be an addicted loser.

One of the ills of prohibition has been the actions of organised crime to serve the repressed demand.

It won't be repressed demand. It is an actual reduction in demand. Vapes are available and are "cool" compared to cigarettes, which young people typically see as uncool.

Like pipe smoking - demand wasn't repressed, it just disappeared because young people didn't want to be associated with the habits of the older generation.

[Boustrophedon]

So the time will come when Joe is able to buy tobacco, but Bob, who is a year younger, won't, how's that supposed to work then?

Bob will be less likely to want to buy tobacco, because he will be less likely to be an addicted loser.

But it is already illegal for kids to buy tobacco and yet they do, I fail to see how any additional legislation can change that state of affairs.

[lpm]

It's illegal to sell tobacco to children. That's where the burden lies, with the seller.

Young people accept hassle for something "cool", like they currently see vaping. They won't bother for uncool cigarettes. And older people will be less motivated to accept the hassle. The next step will be pharmacy sales only, queuing behind pensioners taking five minutes to get their prescriptions explained.