You are quite openly Jewish...

[Tristan]

If the met can't say they'll keep Jews who want to walk around London freely safe then why are these anti-Israel marches still allowed to happen week in, week out?

From 4:48 the officer tells the guy that his presence is antagonising the marchers and because the met can't control the crowd if they decide to attack him they threaten HIM with arrest instead.

https://x.com/antisemitism/status/1781032832204214308

[Grumble]

Protective custody is a thing isn’t it? Doesn’t mean there are any charges to follow or anything other than the easiest way to keep someone safe from a mob is to remove them from it.

[Tristan]

Protective custody is a thing isn’t it? Doesn’t mean there are any charges to follow or anything other than the easiest way to keep someone safe from a mob is to remove them from it.

If they need to be kept safe from a mob it does bring into question again whether that mob should be there in the first place. If these marches aren't inherently anti-semitic why would the presence of a visibily Jewish person antagonise them? Why are they still allowed to march?

[Tristan]

The met police posted a staggeringly bad statement that they then had to delete and apologise for.

IMG_9541.jpeg (479.3 KiB) Viewed 616 times

[Gfamily]

Protective custody is a thing isn’t it? Doesn’t mean there are any charges to follow or anything other than the easiest way to keep someone safe from a mob is to remove them from it.

If they need to be kept safe from a mob it does bring into question again whether that mob should be there in the first place. If these marches aren't inherently anti-semitic why would the presence of a visibily Jewish person antagonise them? Why are they still allowed to march?

I'm sat in a room with someone who was there and saw the later parts of the event, as he was being walked away.
There was the pro Palestinian group on one side, and a Pro Israeli group on the other.

There was no specific animosity from the pro Palestinian group towards the other, but the man in question was trying to cross the barriers between them so that he could approach them in person.

There is no reason to believe that he 'needed to be kept safe from a mob' unless he were to provoke one. Whether that was his intention, I don't know, but the police appear to have felt that his actions were not conducive to keeping the peace.

[Tristan]

There was no specific animosity from the pro Palestinian group

There is no reason to believe that he 'needed to be kept safe from a mob' unless he were to provoke one.

Apart from the ones shouting “Nazi” “scum” and threatening to follow him

the police appear to have felt that his actions were not conducive to keeping the peace.

His actions seemingly being “quite visibly Jewish”. The officer said as much when he said he wasn’t accusing him of doing anything.


How long are we going to have to continue putting up with weekly marches containing antisemites? I have Jewish friends who avoid central London on a Saturday now. That’s not acceptable.

[dyqik]

There was no specific animosity from the pro Palestinian group

There is no reason to believe that he 'needed to be kept safe from a mob' unless he were to provoke one.

Apart from the ones shouting “Nazi” “scum” and threatening to follow him

the police appear to have felt that his actions were not conducive to keeping the peace.

His actions seemingly being “quite visibly Jewish”. The officer said as much when he said he wasn’t accusing him of doing anything.


How long are we going to have to continue putting up with weekly marches containing antisemites? I have Jewish friends who avoid central London on a Saturday now. That’s not acceptable.

Banning marches and restricting freedom of speech is not acceptable.

[Tristan]

Banning marches in certain circumstances is acceptable. There is no absolute right to march.

I’d argue there are serious questions about whether a march at which somebody being “visibly Jewish” provokes the crows, should still get to happen week in week out.

If the EDL were organising a march every week and a black man was threatened with arrest in similar circumstances I suspect we’d be having a very different conversation.

[Grumble]

Banning marches in certain circumstances is acceptable. There is no absolute right to march.

I’d argue there are serious questions about whether a march at which somebody being “visibly Jewish” provokes the crows, should still get to happen week in week out.

If the EDL were organising a march every week and a black man was threatened with arrest in similar circumstances I suspect we’d be having a very different conversation.

People trying to cross barriers to get to an opposing demonstration quite often results in arrest doesn’t it?

[Tristan]

Banning marches in certain circumstances is acceptable. There is no absolute right to march.

I’d argue there are serious questions about whether a march at which somebody being “visibly Jewish” provokes the crows, should still get to happen week in week out.

If the EDL were organising a march every week and a black man was threatened with arrest in similar circumstances I suspect we’d be having a very different conversation.

People trying to cross barriers to get to an opposing demonstration quite often results in arrest doesn’t it?

“You are quite openly Jewish. This is a pro-Palestinian march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

[Stranger Mouse]

Protective custody is a thing isn’t it? Doesn’t mean there are any charges to follow or anything other than the easiest way to keep someone safe from a mob is to remove them from it.

I can imagine the reaction if black people got arrested for their own protection every time Tommy Robinson’s lot cam to town.

[Imrael]

Protective custody is a thing isn’t it? Doesn’t mean there are any charges to follow or anything other than the easiest way to keep someone safe from a mob is to remove them from it.

I can imagine the reaction if black people got arrested for their own protection every time Tommy Robinson’s lot cam to town.

Granted its a very long time ago, but I have seen police forcefully shepherding asian young men away from a far right march in the past.

[Tristan]

Also, EDL marches have been banned in the past.

[discovolante]

Is anyone closer to London than I am these days able to give a decent idea of what the general composition / nature of these marches is like? Are they pro-Palestine marches which are unfortunately (but perhaps inevitably) attracting a proportion of antisemitic folk out to cause trouble, or are they primarily antisemitic?

Eta that jumping in to defend the Met isn't necessarily a great look. Possibly a bit harsh on those Met officers who are doing their best but as a general rule of thumb...

[Grumble]

The police are charged with keeping the peace, this can mean stopping people doing things which would otherwise be perfectly legal and is based on a threat assessment in the moment.

[Gfamily]

Is anyone closer to London than I am these days able to give a decent idea of what the general composition / nature of these marches is like? Are they pro-Palestine marches which are unfortunately (but perhaps inevitably) attracting a proportion of antisemitic folk out to cause trouble, or are they primarily antisemitic?

I'm sure it depends on who you ask. The person I know who goes says it's the former, and there are a fair number of Jews who join the marches.

My impression is that Tristan would probably say the latter. I don't know if they go to see.

[discovolante]

Is anyone closer to London than I am these days able to give a decent idea of what the general composition / nature of these marches is like? Are they pro-Palestine marches which are unfortunately (but perhaps inevitably) attracting a proportion of antisemitic folk out to cause trouble, or are they primarily antisemitic?

I'm sure it depends on who you ask. The person I know who goes says it's the former, and there are a fair number of Jews who join the marches.

My impression is that Tristan would probably say the latter. I don't know if they go to see.

Yeah it's probably tricky to tell, and I'm reluctant to go by anything that's reported in the media. My gut feeling is that there is probably a not insignificant fringe of people going along to a march that is primarily in support of Gaza, obviously with some blurred lines. Obviously I could be wrong, but if not then the police do have a difficult job. Although it's definitely not an ideal solution, they are capable of having a strong presence at marches (including intelligence gathering from attendees) and responding to signs of trouble as they arise.

Edit again, because I just want to express a general feeling I have that using groups of people as a political football is sickening and from my vantage point both makes them unsafe and increases their sense of not being safe. It can be seen in all sorts of contexts, this one included, and it's really worrying.

[Tristan]

Yes it’s difficult for the police on the ground. Gideon made that point on Twitter himself. His issue is less to do with policing on the ground than to the higher decisions that led to the situation.

As I said before, I have Jewish friends who are impacted by this. Their family goes to synagogue in Westminster and this really is impacting them every week. They don’t feel safe. Had a similar conversation with a guy I work with who lives in north London. Some of his Jewish friends are avoiding central London on Saturdays now.

[bob sterman]

Police said, to a man in a kippah....

“You are quite openly Jewish. This is a pro-Palestinian march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

Can you imagine them saying, to a woman passing an EDL march wearing traditional Islamic clothing...??

“You are quite openly Muslim. This is a pro-English march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

[Gfamily]

Police said, to a man in a kippah....

“You are quite openly Jewish. This is a pro-Palestinian march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

Can you imagine them saying, to a woman passing an EDL march wearing traditional Islamic clothing...??

“You are quite openly Muslim. This is a pro-English march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

He wasn't passing through.

[Martin Y]

...
Can you imagine them saying, to a woman passing an EDL march wearing traditional Islamic clothing...??

“You are quite openly Muslim. This is a pro-English march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

To imagine it properly, wouldn't we have to imagine there was a Muslim army invading England and that she wasn't 'passing' but rather a counter-demonstrator trying to confront the demonstrators?

[discovolante]

Today has run away with me a bit so this won't be as detailed as I'd like. I'm not sure what the police are thinking if they aren't taking action against people threatening or assaulting others during the protests. I guess they are doing that too and I'd hope some action was taken against the men who were videoed saying they were going to follow him around, but I dunno of course. Equating criticism of Israel with antisemitism or suggesting that Israel is somehow incapable of genocide does nothing to help the situation frankly but stopping that obviously isn't the sole solution.

One thing that is on my mind is actual risk and perception of risk. It seems to me that there has been an increase in incidents of antisemitism over the past several months but also a number of allegations that aren't particularly well founded. The number of overall reports goes to increasing the feeling of insecurity that Jewish people will no doubt be feeling. In case it seems like I'm minimising people's concerns or denying there is a problem, I'm not. It can probably be broadly compared to women feeling the need to cross the street at night every time a man is walking behind them. Or perhaps the scare of women being spiked by injection; the figures there seem quite murky and from what i can gather it's a genuinely terrifying thing that may be much less common than the headlines suggested. Actual threat and perception of threat is a vicious cycle and feeling unsafe even if things aren't quite as bad as they might seem isn't anything to belittle, especially when it comes from an otherwise solid basis. I feel a bit despairing at how much the situation in Gaza is screwing everyone over and making things worse for everyone to be honest, although saying that I don't want to forget about what is happening to actual Gazans in the middle of all of this.

At the moment I'm fairly happy to assume that my feeling about the general composition of the marches is more or less accurate seeing as it comes from a reasonable amount of experience of being in or observing demonstrations generally. If I'm right I can't see a fundamental problem with people marching in opposition to Israel's actions and presumably their belief in the UK government's overall complicity (which is a pretty significant factor). The presence of people who intend to harm Jewish people is very predictable though: the police have a very difficult job but it is their job to do it.

[Bewildered]

Police said, to a man in a kippah....

“You are quite openly Jewish. This is a pro-Palestinian march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

Can you imagine them saying, to a woman passing an EDL march wearing traditional Islamic clothing...??

“You are quite openly Muslim. This is a pro-English march. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am worried about the reaction to your presence.”

He wasn't passing through.

Right but can we just state the obvious first: that wording is appalling, regardless of the potential justification for stopping someone crosssing from one protest group to the other (I’m basing this on posts up stream, all I know about this incident is from here). I also really hope it’s not a safety concern for a Jewish person to join the pro Palestinian protests, does not speak well of how they are being organised and the people they are attracting if it is.

However I also don’t see anything remarkable about keeping two groups of opposing protesters apart and not letting one cross from the other, which is what people in this thread seem to be saying was happening.

[Bewildered]

Also, EDL marches have been banned in the past.

I guess this is similar to disco’s post, but do you really believe that pro-Palestinian protests are basically the same as EDL marches?

[Tristan]

Also, EDL marches have been banned in the past.

I guess this is similar to disco’s post, but do you really believe that pro-Palestinian protests are basically the same as EDL marches?

Not to the same extent. EDL marches are pretty much exclusively racist. These matches just include a not insignificant racist element.