Bishops contra communion for Biden

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IvanV
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by IvanV » Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:47 pm

Martin_B wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:14 am
Trinucleus wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:05 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:44 am
"Thou shalt not kill" covers it
So people shouldn't have guns then 😁
Some interpretations have it as "Thou shalt not murder", which allows the ownership and use of guns in self-defense, and also the death penalty, as governmental killings in the name of justice aren't murder, apparently. :roll:
The Old Testament is much in favour of killing people, indeed it demands it. But the people who must be killed are non-Jews. It goes so far as to indicate that the unhappy reign of certain kings was a divine punishment for them failing to be sufficiently ruthless in killing non-Jews.

The Jews have accordingly interpreted this commandment narrowly as meaning you shouldn't murder other Jews, not people in general. So the Catholics have changed the meaning of something that had been interpreted in another way for hundreds of years.

Various religious denominations and sects, both in Christianity and other religions, have a frequent habit of focusing on specific issues as Very Important Signs of your adherence to that particular denomination. They elevate it above other doctrines, though there seems to be no particular reason for it being so much more important than other things you can be more easily forgiven for. They punish you hard for even questioning them on it. Even though such issues might be said to be not really very important in the round. The enforcement of them has many perverse effects of making many peoples' lives much worse in consequence. It closely mirrors the habits of totalitarian dictators.

So I interpret it as a technique to demonstrate and maintain control of their adherents. It also acts as a mechanism to distinguish denominations from others, because us-and-them is an important part of that demonstration and maintenance of control. In the past, being excommunicated would have considerably excluded you from society. Even today, if you are a Jehovah's Witness then being "Unfellowshipped", their equivalent, is devastating - your family must not even talk to you apart from functional things to keep you alive. (Watch the film https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_(2017_film)) The Catholic church has selected anti-abortion for these purposes. There seems to be no particular reason to elevate that doctrine as so much more important than other ones and make such an enormous fuss about it. They have form. Back in the early mediaeval period Rome invented the doctrine of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque, wrote it into the Creed without agreeing it with the other provinces of the church, and thus tried to assert control over them. The outcome was the Great Schism and hence the distinction between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

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Boustrophedon
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Boustrophedon » Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:35 pm

Lets face it excommunication is so f.cking mediaeval.

"E pur si muove" and all that.
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:28 am

Trinucleus wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:04 am
I'm never quite sure where the bible mentions abortion?
That is ireelevant as the Pope is the source of truth for Catholics - not the Bible. The Catholic Church considers the Bible to be too difficult for ordinary people to understand, so they should not try to form their own opinions but instead follow the Church's teachings. This is why many translations of the Bible were banned.
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:30 am

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:40 pm
So if the Catholic Church in the US wants to punish Biden for not banning abortion, then it is sticking it's nose into a political/state issue. If they want to do that then they should first of all give up all tax exemptions etc. Separation of Church and State has to go both ways.
There is no inconsistency. The Church considers that it is superior to all human law.
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:32 am

Meanwhile..,

Pope Francis has admitted that clerics have sexually abused nuns, and in one case they were kept as sex slaves.
He said in that case his predecessor, Pope Benedict, was forced to shut down an entire congregation of nuns who were being abused by priests.
It is thought to be the first time that Pope Francis has acknowledged the sexual abuse of nuns by the clergy.
He said the Church was attempting to address the problem but said it was "still going on".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47134033

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by IvanV » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:41 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:32 am
Meanwhile..,
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47134033
The nuns it was who were closed down. More than one example of that is mentioned in the article. So if priests are abusing nuns, it's the nuns who have to be dealt with.

It reminds one of the case of Eamonn Casey, who resigned as bishop of Galway in 1992, when the mother of his teenage son Peter exposed him to the newspapers. He paid maintenance for the child, at least in part by embezzling it from church funds. The child was brought up in the US by the American mother, when the mother refused the pressure of the nuns in Dublin to put him up for adoption. Once exposed, other women also complained of his sexual abuse.

His punishment by the Vatican was truly terrible: they told him to leave the country quietly. He then worked as a missionary in Ecuador. Later he worked in a parish in England. A mere 14 years later, the Irish chuch finally realised the need to increase the punishment, and banned him from saying mass in public.

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Tessa K
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Tessa K » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:47 am

I wrote this 11 years ago about the sexual abuse of women by the clergy, including nuns (scroll down). It's been known to be a problem for a long time.

https://tessera2009.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... hurch.html

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by shpalman » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:13 pm

Meanwhile the Vatican is complaining that a law in a different country, i.e. Italy, might interfere with catholics' liberty of expression, i.e. to express what a bunch of bigoted homophobic c.nts they are.
molto tricky

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by shpalman » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:54 pm

shpalman wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:13 pm
Meanwhile the Vatican is complaining that a law in a different country, i.e. Italy, might interfere with catholics' liberty of expression, i.e. to express what a bunch of bigoted homophobic c.nts they are.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57570467
The Zan bill would punish discrimination and incitement to violence against the LGBT community, as well as women and people with disabilities.
Matteo Salvini, the leader of far-right Northern League, said his party was aligned with the Church's stance.
When that guy's on your side, you're on the wrong side.
molto tricky

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by IvanV » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:01 pm

So the Vatican has complained about the proposed Italian law, but they don't seem to be threatening individual politicians' access to communion, or at least it isn't mentioned in the article.

I don't seem to recall Irish bishops making threatening individual politicians in Ireland when they had a referendum on abortion a few years ago, though doubtless they disagreed with it. Similarly in Argentina which has very recently liberalised abortion, and that's the pope's own country of origin.

So the Catholic church publicly might object to political matters that one is unsurprised to see the Catholic church object to. But making threats against individual politicians seems to be a specifically US method of operating.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by monkey » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:28 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:01 pm
So the Vatican has complained about the proposed Italian law, but they don't seem to be threatening individual politicians' access to communion, or at least it isn't mentioned in the article.

I don't seem to recall Irish bishops making threatening individual politicians in Ireland when they had a referendum on abortion a few years ago, though doubtless they disagreed with it. Similarly in Argentina which has very recently liberalised abortion, and that's the pope's own country of origin.

So the Catholic church publicly might object to political matters that one is unsurprised to see the Catholic church object to. But making threats against individual politicians seems to be a specifically US method of operating.
The Irish bishops argued about it: clicky . This debate has happened in other countries, but the Bishops in the US seem to be more willing to wade into politics than elsewhere, even as they seem to get more and out of touch with normal Catholics.

I think in Spain they didn't excommunicate the politicians, but told them that they shouldn't receive communion, because Catholicism is weird like that, and once you think you know what something means, it turns out it doesn't always mean that.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by bmforre » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:10 am

While that gang of US bishops are weighing Biden's soul people a bit farther north are digging up traces of catholic morality for the indigenous:
Residential School Survivors Society tell of the curriculum they had pounded into them:
(Survivor) said they were made to believe that they didn’t have souls.
They did leave bones:
Cowessess First Nation says it has found an estimated 751 unmarked graves on the grounds of the former Marieval Indian Residential School in Saskatchewan.
Late witnesses for the Grand Morality judgement.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Grumble » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:58 am

IvanV wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:41 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:32 am
Meanwhile..,
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47134033
The nuns it was who were closed down. More than one example of that is mentioned in the article. So if priests are abusing nuns, it's the nuns who have to be dealt with.

It reminds one of the case of Eamonn Casey, who resigned as bishop of Galway in 1992, when the mother of his teenage son Peter exposed him to the newspapers. He paid maintenance for the child, at least in part by embezzling it from church funds. The child was brought up in the US by the American mother, when the mother refused the pressure of the nuns in Dublin to put him up for adoption. Once exposed, other women also complained of his sexual abuse.

His punishment by the Vatican was truly terrible: they told him to leave the country quietly. He then worked as a missionary in Ecuador. Later he worked in a parish in England. A mere 14 years later, the Irish chuch finally realised the need to increase the punishment, and banned him from saying mass in public.
I hadn’t realised the Father Ted episode where Bishop Brennan is revealed to have a child in America was based on a real story.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Little waster » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:58 am

Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:58 am
Father Ted
Fly-on-the-wall documentary innit.
It's meta, so it is allowed.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by sideshowjim » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:08 pm

Without capital punishment, there wouldn't be Christianity, surely?

Is it not strange that the US bishops are proposing this now, yet my vague recollections from sunday school were that Communion was reliant on attending confession (at some point at least).

Perhaps the orange racist whose family ran a fake childrens' cancer charity attended once, but between his repeated documented infidelities and so on, I can't have imagined them making a similar proposal then.

Of course, divorcees can get married in catholic churches now.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by shpalman » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:17 am

sideshowjim wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:08 pm
Without capital punishment, there wouldn't be Christianity, surely?

Is it not strange that the US bishops are proposing this now, yet my vague recollections from sunday school were that Communion was reliant on attending confession (at some point at least).

Perhaps the orange racist whose family ran a fake childrens' cancer charity attended once, but between his repeated documented infidelities and so on, I can't have imagined them making a similar proposal then.

Of course, divorcees can get married in catholic churches now.
Trump isn't catholic though.
molto tricky

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Tessa K » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:19 am

shpalman wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:17 am
sideshowjim wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:08 pm
Without capital punishment, there wouldn't be Christianity, surely?

Is it not strange that the US bishops are proposing this now, yet my vague recollections from sunday school were that Communion was reliant on attending confession (at some point at least).

Perhaps the orange racist whose family ran a fake childrens' cancer charity attended once, but between his repeated documented infidelities and so on, I can't have imagined them making a similar proposal then.

Of course, divorcees can get married in catholic churches now.
Trump isn't catholic though.
Did you notice this in the paragraph below?
He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by bmforre » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:50 am

Tessa K wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:19 am
Did you notice this in the paragraph below?
(Trump) considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise.
Does he see any reason for eating?

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by jimbob » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:19 pm

Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:58 am
IvanV wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:41 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:32 am
Meanwhile..,
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47134033
The nuns it was who were closed down. More than one example of that is mentioned in the article. So if priests are abusing nuns, it's the nuns who have to be dealt with.

It reminds one of the case of Eamonn Casey, who resigned as bishop of Galway in 1992, when the mother of his teenage son Peter exposed him to the newspapers. He paid maintenance for the child, at least in part by embezzling it from church funds. The child was brought up in the US by the American mother, when the mother refused the pressure of the nuns in Dublin to put him up for adoption. Once exposed, other women also complained of his sexual abuse.

His punishment by the Vatican was truly terrible: they told him to leave the country quietly. He then worked as a missionary in Ecuador. Later he worked in a parish in England. A mere 14 years later, the Irish chuch finally realised the need to increase the punishment, and banned him from saying mass in public.
I hadn’t realised the Father Ted episode where Bishop Brennan is revealed to have a child in America was based on a real story.
Oh yes, I thought it was close to the bone at the time.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Grumble » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:43 pm

I realised things like that happened, just not how close to an actual story it was.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by sideshowjim » Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:43 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:17 am
sideshowjim wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:08 pm
Without capital punishment, there wouldn't be Christianity, surely?

Is it not strange that the US bishops are proposing this now, yet my vague recollections from sunday school were that Communion was reliant on attending confession (at some point at least).

Perhaps the orange racist whose family ran a fake childrens' cancer charity attended once, but between his repeated documented infidelities and so on, I can't have imagined them making a similar proposal then.

Of course, divorcees can get married in catholic churches now.
Trump isn't catholic though.
But Boris Johnson claims to be. Or sort of does. Who the hell knows?

Trump should visibly start to emit smoke and hiss like a cornered cat every time he gets close to consecrated ground.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by monkey » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:41 pm

sideshowjim wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:43 pm
shpalman wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:17 am
sideshowjim wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:08 pm
Without capital punishment, there wouldn't be Christianity, surely?

Is it not strange that the US bishops are proposing this now, yet my vague recollections from sunday school were that Communion was reliant on attending confession (at some point at least).

Perhaps the orange racist whose family ran a fake childrens' cancer charity attended once, but between his repeated documented infidelities and so on, I can't have imagined them making a similar proposal then.

Of course, divorcees can get married in catholic churches now.
Trump isn't catholic though.
But Boris Johnson claims to be. Or sort of does. Who the hell knows?

Trump should visibly start to emit smoke and hiss like a cornered cat every time he gets close to consecrated ground.
There was a bunch of tear gas just before he went across the road to that church last year.

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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:50 am

Burrill has now resigned from his position after cell phone data revealed that he used the gay dating app Grindr and regularly visits gay bars.
https://hillreporter.com/catholic-monsi ... app-107426

People shouldn't have to resign from anything for doing gay stuff, of course. But it's striking that so many of these belligerent right-wingers seem to be deeply troubled, repressed individuals.

Hopefully, growing social acceptance of gayness etc will mean fewer people end up on the political right. And hopefully the Catholic church hurries up and ends its homophobia (and misogyny, and however much paedophilia is still going on).
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Re: Bishops contra communion for Biden

Post by Pishwish » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:07 pm

I know what the headline says, but how do we know he wanted to deny Biden communion? He's the guy who reads out the bishops' votes.

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