Re: Benefits of Brexit for Britain
Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:42 pm
Our standards may diverge as far as, say, Canada or Japan's but unlikely to diverge as much as China's. The thing is, exports to the EU have been slightly in the minority and the non-EU exports have been growing faster for a while now.
Why is that the ‘thing’ though? Businesses now need to put another quality stream in place.
Yes, it would be a cost for people who want to export to the EU. But the majority of businesses dont export to the EU, so they wont need to change. In return, they get increased export opportunities to the rest of the world (growing faster) and regulation at home thats more tailored to them.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:05 amWhy is that the ‘thing’ though? Businesses now need to put another quality stream in place.
Let’s use the analogy of someone running the steeplechase. You’re saying ‘they jump hurdles anyway’. But the reality is the someone’s just thrown a new hurdle on the track whilst the race is being run. They also appear to have a vanload of various obstacles that they may or may not sling on to the track at a moment’s notice. Not a good way to get a world record time.
So, you're claiming that in th EU manufacturers couldn't maufacture goods to meet other non-EU standards if they weren't the same as \EU standards. I think you're wrong.
He is wrong.Lew Dolby wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:11 amSo, you're claiming that in the EU manufacturers couldn't maufacture goods to meet other non-EU standards if they weren't the same as \EU standards. I think you're wrong.
I think it will be a mix of things. Firstly, some countries will be willing to recognise regulatory equivalence. British standards really aren't that slack or unsafe, and reasonable people will recognise that. Secondly, I expect we'll be increasingly aligned to the CPTPP. I won't pretend leaving the EU is free, it's a tradeoff; you leave the standards/customs/single market and become a third country like Canada or Japan, in return you get the trade and regulatory freedoms that countries like Canada and Japan have.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:30 amYes, exactly. UK firms now don't know where they stand and now face all sorts of new certification issues with a major export bloc, on top of the old certification issues they already had with non-EU exports. We could try and strategically align British Standards with e.g. India or Brazil but that seems completely mental and I can't imagine what the overall benefit would be.
There's a host of EU regulations impacting how you run a business that you had to follow whether you were exporting to the EU or not. EU regulations are not just about the shape and dimensions of widgets. They cover areas ranging from environmental standards and labour relations through to state assistance and by no means do all of these regs represent a 'gold standard' or make sense. EU membership also meant we could only enter into trade deals after 27 other countries were aligned.
British standards aren't just "not that slack and unsafe", they're amongst the strictest in the world. We almost certainly won't be reducing our quality standards to align with anyone, so exporting to e.g. Brazil will be in exactly the same boat as now. If you think we will then you've obviously never met anyone who works for a standards body - they are proper defenders of the faith.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:37 amI think it will be a mix of things. Firstly, some countries will be willing to recognise regulatory equivalence. British standards really aren't that slack or unsafe, and reasonable people will recognise that. Secondly, I expect we'll be increasingly aligned to the CPTPP. I won't pretend leaving the EU is free, it's a tradeoff; you leave the standards/customs/single market and become a third country like Canada or Japan, in return you get the trade and regulatory freedoms that countries like Canada and Japan have.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:30 amYes, exactly. UK firms now don't know where they stand and now face all sorts of new certification issues with a major export bloc, on top of the old certification issues they already had with non-EU exports. We could try and strategically align British Standards with e.g. India or Brazil but that seems completely mental and I can't imagine what the overall benefit would be.
I think this means we actually agree Plodder. I think our standards are tight enough that the only people who wouldn't be willing to recognise them are people looking to use divergent standards as a protectionist thing.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:00 am
British standards aren't just "not that slack and unsafe", they're amongst the strictest in the world. We almost certainly won't be reducing our quality standards to align with anyone, so exporting to e.g. Brazil will be in exactly the same boat as now. If you think we will then you've obviously never met anyone who works for a standards body - they are proper defenders of the faith.
I won't cure it, it's a tradeoff about whether improved access to those other markets and better regs at home are worth the cost. I think they are so far, but it's an opinion about the future rather than a fact.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:23 amThe problem is not that people won't accept our exports (which are high quality), it's that exporters will have additional costs (red tape, re-tooling, changes to quality systems, licensing issues etc) to deal with following divergence from the EU, who are well known to be particularly finickity. Simply saying "markets are growing elsewhere" doesn't address this.
I agree in general.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:18 amI think this means we actually agree Plodder. I think our standards are tight enough that the only people who wouldn't be willing to recognise them are people looking to use divergent standards as a protectionist thing.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:00 am
British standards aren't just "not that slack and unsafe", they're amongst the strictest in the world. We almost certainly won't be reducing our quality standards to align with anyone, so exporting to e.g. Brazil will be in exactly the same boat as now. If you think we will then you've obviously never met anyone who works for a standards body - they are proper defenders of the faith.
Also, the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement commits both to keeping level playingfield with high standards in a wide range of areas (eg environment, social and labour rights, tax, state aid etc). The British government can tinker at the margins, but there would be negative consequences if it were to give British business a significant competitive advantage through changes in regulation.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:00 amBritish standards aren't just "not that slack and unsafe", they're amongst the strictest in the world. We almost certainly won't be reducing our quality standards to align with anyone, so exporting to e.g. Brazil will be in exactly the same boat as now. If you think we will then you've obviously never met anyone who works for a standards body - they are proper defenders of the faith.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:37 amI think it will be a mix of things. Firstly, some countries will be willing to recognise regulatory equivalence. British standards really aren't that slack or unsafe, and reasonable people will recognise that. Secondly, I expect we'll be increasingly aligned to the CPTPP. I won't pretend leaving the EU is free, it's a tradeoff; you leave the standards/customs/single market and become a third country like Canada or Japan, in return you get the trade and regulatory freedoms that countries like Canada and Japan have.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:30 amYes, exactly. UK firms now don't know where they stand and now face all sorts of new certification issues with a major export bloc, on top of the old certification issues they already had with non-EU exports. We could try and strategically align British Standards with e.g. India or Brazil but that seems completely mental and I can't imagine what the overall benefit would be.
One area where this freedom will help is that regulation goes beyond a spectrum between 'lax and strict'. You can have regulations which are incredibly finnicky and prescriptive that don't actually achieve a safer or cleaner output. The spectrum of what would be acceptable to various trading partners will increasingly focus on CPTPP norms rather than EU norms.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:57 amAlso, the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement commits both to keeping level playingfield with high standards in a wide range of areas (eg environment, social and labour rights, tax, state aid etc). The British government can tinker at the margins, but there would be negative consequences if it were to British business a significant competitive advantage through changes in regulation.plodder wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:00 amBritish standards aren't just "not that slack and unsafe", they're amongst the strictest in the world. We almost certainly won't be reducing our quality standards to align with anyone, so exporting to e.g. Brazil will be in exactly the same boat as now. If you think we will then you've obviously never met anyone who works for a standards body - they are proper defenders of the faith.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:37 am
I think it will be a mix of things. Firstly, some countries will be willing to recognise regulatory equivalence. British standards really aren't that slack or unsafe, and reasonable people will recognise that. Secondly, I expect we'll be increasingly aligned to the CPTPP. I won't pretend leaving the EU is free, it's a tradeoff; you leave the standards/customs/single market and become a third country like Canada or Japan, in return you get the trade and regulatory freedoms that countries like Canada and Japan have.
Right, I think I've done so - please use the other thread for your sarcasm and whatnot, and let's keep it somewhat good faith in here, eh.Stephanie wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:24 pmI've moved some over already, but I'll have to have another look to make sure I've brought over some of the related discussions toosheldrake wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:54 pmWhen you have time could you please move my posts about brexit benefits here please. There are one or two posts by others that are sincerely about brexit benefits to the UK too.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:45 pmHere is a thread for positive news about how aspects of Brexit benefit the population of the United Kingdom.
They don't say "the EU made us do it", they say "I am a technocrat in a silo and this is my bleep whirr whiz bang solution". This is because the various departments don't talk to each other because (in the example of Defra) if they did then they would gang up on the minister who won't allow them to operate at arms length and wants to cut their budgets.sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:32 pmThe regs governing our insurance markets went from pages to volumes during our EU membership; if we assume you were right then there's a serious cultural problem in our civil service that they've been obfuscating by saying 'the EU made us do it', that excuse has been taken away, but there's clearly still work to do.
Well, that's your view. If you don't accept the views of the legal scholars and senior civil servants I posted in the past, how do you explain the emergence of this culture ? it certainly seems to have taken hold during our membership of the EU.