Scrutable

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:26 pm**

bjn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:50 pm
You forgot to add, “f.ck off Tankie.”

And obviously that the two huge advantages that Ukraine has in this war are the determination to fight because they're defending their homeland and a steady supply of free materiel they couldn't otherwise afford. Neither of which would apply to any imagined future Ukrainian aggression.

And f.ck off tankie.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:37 pm**

Martin Y wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:26 pm

bjn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:50 pm
You forgot to add, “f.ck off Tankie.”
And obviously that the two huge advantages that Ukraine has in this war are the determination to fight because they're defending their homeland and a steady supply of free materiel they couldn't otherwise afford. Neither of which would apply to any imagined future Ukrainian aggression.

And f.ck off tankie.

Once this is all over, Ukraine is also going to be too busy rebuilding themselves to bother anyone for years. I also imagine they’d be on the fast track for NATO entry having more than proven themselves where it counts.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:59 pm**

bjn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:37 pm

Martin Y wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:26 pm

bjn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:50 pm
You forgot to add, “f.ck off Tankie.”
And obviously that the two huge advantages that Ukraine has in this war are the determination to fight because they're defending their homeland and a steady supply of free materiel they couldn't otherwise afford. Neither of which would apply to any imagined future Ukrainian aggression.

And f.ck off tankie.
Once this is all over, Ukraine is also going to be too busy rebuilding themselves to bother anyone for years. I also imagine they’d be on the fast track for NATO entry having more than proven themselves where it counts.

Yes to everything.

The Ukrainian political and military leadership are also not notable idiots.

They can see the cost of a war of aggression, even if they would not want to build closer links with Europe.

These don't look like people who are fighting for conquest

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1 ... zH9OEQjPNA

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:02 pm**

Another example of internal dissent being publicly expressed…

https://www.rawstory.com/putin-revolt/

deputies from Moscow's Lomonosovsky district recalled that Putin's leadership began with "good reforms" but that as time marched onward, “everything went wrong.”

While the deepening quagmire in Ukraine was not specifically mentioned, the authors stressed that the status quo under Putin is untenable.

“The rhetoric that you and your subordinates use has been riddled with intolerance and aggression for a long time, which in the end effectively threw our country back into the Cold War era. Russia has again begun to be feared and hated, we are once again threatening the whole world with nuclear weapons,” the officials wrote. “We ask you to relieve yourself of your post due to the fact that your views and your governance model are hopelessly outdated and hinder the development of Russia and its human potential."

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:04 pm**

jimbob wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:59 pm

bjn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:37 pm

Martin Y wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:26 pm

And obviously that the two huge advantages that Ukraine has in this war are the determination to fight because they're defending their homeland and a steady supply of free materiel they couldn't otherwise afford. Neither of which would apply to any imagined future Ukrainian aggression.

And f.ck off tankie.
Once this is all over, Ukraine is also going to be too busy rebuilding themselves to bother anyone for years. I also imagine they’d be on the fast track for NATO entry having more than proven themselves where it counts.
Yes to everything.

The Ukrainian political and military leadership are also not notable idiots.

They can see the cost of a war of aggression, even if they would not want to build closer links with Europe.

These don't look like people who are fighting for conquest

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1 ... zH9OEQjPNA

I accidentally opened this thread on the first page recently. Saw people arguing Ukraine's defence would be complicated by people in the east wanting to be part of Russia. Not going to name names, but the people that said that should look at some of the footage of people - many of them speaking Russian or Surzhyk as well as some speaking Ukrainian - greeting the troops liberating towns and villages in the east of Ukraine, and use it as a learning experience about narratives like that one. This video is just one, but there's loads out there.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:58 pm**

Oh, and Herainestold

This was Zelensky's speech to Putin tonight.

"Do you still think we are one people? Do you still think you can scare us, break us, force us to make concessions? Don't you really get it? Don't you understand who we are? What we stand for? What we are all about?

Read my lips: Without gas or without you? Without you. Without light or without you? Without you. Without water or without you. Without you. Without food or without you? Without you.

Cold, hunger, darkness and thirst are not as frightening and deadly for us as your friendship and brotherhood. But history will put everything in its place. And we will be with gas, light, water and food...and WITHOUT you!"

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:10 pm**

EACLucifer wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:04 pm

jimbob wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:59 pm

bjn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:37 pm

Once this is all over, Ukraine is also going to be too busy rebuilding themselves to bother anyone for years. I also imagine they’d be on the fast track for NATO entry having more than proven themselves where it counts.
Yes to everything.

The Ukrainian political and military leadership are also not notable idiots.

They can see the cost of a war of aggression, even if they would not want to build closer links with Europe.

These don't look like people who are fighting for conquest

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1 ... zH9OEQjPNA
I accidentally opened this thread on the first page recently. Saw people arguing Ukraine's defence would be complicated by people in the east wanting to be part of Russia. Not going to name names, but the people that said that should look at some of the footage of people - many of them speaking Russian or Surzhyk as well as some speaking Ukrainian - greeting the troops liberating towns and villages in the east of Ukraine, and use it as a learning experience about narratives like that one. This video is just one, but there's loads out there.

Ironically residents fleeing from the Donbas to Russian are being turns back at the border, even with newly minted Russian passports.

I have no idea of how solid or sincere the support for Russia was in the Donbas and Crimea, but I can’t imagine the forced conscription of the Donbas locals and sending them off as canon fodder will have firmed that up in anyway.

Posted: **Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:18 pm**

bjn wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:10 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:04 pm

jimbob wrote: ↑
Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:59 pm

Yes to everything.

The Ukrainian political and military leadership are also not notable idiots.

They can see the cost of a war of aggression, even if they would not want to build closer links with Europe.

These don't look like people who are fighting for conquest

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1 ... zH9OEQjPNA
I accidentally opened this thread on the first page recently. Saw people arguing Ukraine's defence would be complicated by people in the east wanting to be part of Russia. Not going to name names, but the people that said that should look at some of the footage of people - many of them speaking Russian or Surzhyk as well as some speaking Ukrainian - greeting the troops liberating towns and villages in the east of Ukraine, and use it as a learning experience about narratives like that one. This video is just one, but there's loads out there.
Ironically residents fleeing from the Donbas to Russian are being turns back at the border, even with newly minted Russian passports.

I have no idea of how solid or sincere the support for Russia was in the Donbas and Crimea, but I can’t imagine the forced conscription of the Donbas locals and sending them off as canon fodder will have firmed that up in anyway.

This may also include Russians who settled in the area, either post 2014 or post 2022. A number of teachers were detained in this offensive in Kharkiv oblast. Given their role was to try and destroy Ukrainian language and culture and bully kids into abandoning their culture (and, from the reports I've seen from the area round Mariupol, use kids to spy on their parents), then I don't have any objections to the idea of trying them for illegally entering Ukraine.

Posted: **Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:44 am**

Some Russian TV bigwig predicts that Izyum, recently liberated, will be "Bucha 2.0" but don't worry, his people are working on the propaganda already.

MOSCOW, September 12. /TASS/. Pro-Ukrainian public social networks are beginning to post fake reports about thousands of killed civilians in the city of Izyum, obviously seeking to stage a provocation like the one in Bucha, but such attempts are doomed to failure, Alexander Malkevich, a coordinator of the Zaporzhye-based Zamedia holding, told TASS on Monday.

"A Bucha 2.0 is unfolding before our eye. Reports about thousands of people allegedly killed in Izyum are surfacing in pro-Ukrainian publics. So far, these are isolated cases citing an ‘adviser’ Maxim Strelnikov. But you can take it from me, we will see lost of such posts soon," Malkevich, who is also firest depity chairman of the commission on the development of information community and mass media at the Russian Public Chamber, said, adding that such reports will soon be cited in Western media.

He recalled that similar technologies were used in March, when Ukrainian media and internet resources posted photos and videos featuring dead bodies of people allegedly killed by the Russian military lying in the streets in Bucha. The Russian defense ministry refuted these reports, saying that Russian troops had been withdrawn from Bucha much earlier and "the evidence of crimes" appeared on the fourth day after the arrival of Ukrainian Security Service officers to that city.

"I can say it confidently that there will be no new global scandal. A lot of refugees fled Izyum for Russia. People were running for life to our country from the Nazi. I am sure that each of them will confirm that there were not killings in Izyum," Malkevich stressed, adding that the Za TV will make a story featuring concrete facts and evidence of refugees.

The Russian defense ministry reported on Saturday that Ukrainian troops were regrouping near Balaklea and Izyum to be deployed to the Donetsk People’s Republic.

https://tass.com/russia/1506517

Posted: **Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:45 am**

TimW wrote: ↑
Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:44 am
Some Russian TV bigwig predicts that Izyum, recently liberated, will be "Bucha 2.0" but don't worry, his people are working on the propaganda already.

They are already finding bodies.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:38 am**

This would be a good time for Zelensky to go back to the bargaining table.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:24 am**

Herainestold wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:38 am
This would be a good time for Zelensky to go back to the bargaining table.

It would be a good time for Putin to gtfo of Ukraine

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:02 am**

Grumble wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:24 am

Herainestold wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:38 am
This would be a good time for Zelensky to go back to the bargaining table.
It would be a good time for Putin to gtfo of Ukraine

Also this https://twitter.com/chessninja/status/1 ... g-cXH03YJg

"Since Ukraine is helpless / losing / stalemated / defending / counterattacking / winning, now is the time to negotiate with Putin and make concessions." Funny how it’s always that time with these people.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:45 am**

Herainestold wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:38 am
This would be a good time for Zelensky to go back to the bargaining table.

This would be a great time for Zelenskyy to remind Putin of his terms - removal of all Russian troops from Ukrainian soil, reparations and war criminals to the Hague - and also to remind him that at this point his defeat is inevitable, and that he could save his own troops a lot of suffering by pulling them out now.

Which is roughly what he has been saying.

Putin of course won't, because he doesn't think his own troops lives matter in the slightest either.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:54 am**

Herainestold wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:38 am
This would be a good time for Zelensky to go back to the bargaining table.

Only for Putin to concede to all of Ukraines demands.

Which I doubt was what you intended.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:00 am**

Balakiya, reportedly. The cellar where prisoners were kept. It is reported people were tortured here. One - or perhaps more than one - prisoner carved the Lord's Prayer into the wall.

Why they fight.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 8:02 am**

EACLucifer wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:00 am

Balakiya, reportedly. The cellar where prisoners were kept. It is reported people were tortured here. One - or perhaps more than one - prisoner carved the Lord's Prayer into the wall.

Why they fight.

This is confirmed. It's shown on this excellent report by Orla Guerin. Do not look away from the atrocities here. Bucha was not an anomaly. Though Russian units vary in how they treat civilians, ones that behave as the 64th did in Bucha are all too common. This is what has been happening in eastern Kharkiv Oblast, in Mariupol, Melitopol, Kherson, and all the other places occupied by the Russians.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:20 am**

It's being widely reported in the mainstream press that, just prior to the 24th February escalation, Ukraine offered Putin a deal where they abandoned all aspirations for NATO membership. Putin, of course, rejected this. This is one of the many reasons the "poking the bear" imbeciles who try to blame NATO and Ukraine for Putin's actions are so wrong. Zelenskyy was not Poroshenko. His goal was a quiet frontline and a negotiated solution. But as Putin's goal was conquest and even genocide - a term that should never be used lightly but does apply here - it didn't matter what Zelenskyy was aiming for.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:58 pm**

There were cruise missile strikes on Kryviy Rih earlier today. One of the missiles was observed in flight here. It looks to me like it's a 3M-54 Kalibr. Not only is Kryvih Rih Ukrainian held and well behind the front line, that's a missile that Russia uses and Ukraine doesn't use.

Telegram reports indicate that the Karachuniv Reservoir dam has been breached. The claim is here, and is supported by footage. The area around the breached dam shows signs of extensive explosive damage, consistent with the use of a large warhead such as that fitted to the 3M-54 Kalibr cruise missile.

To deliberately attack works containing dangerous forces - such as dams or nuclear plants - has been recognised as a warcrime since shortly after the second world war. Given the range the attack was made at, and the fact that the dam was struck directly, it more or less has to have been a deliberately targetted strike. A very serious and deliberate warcrime.

It could well be motivated by the Ukrainian bridgehead near Davydiv Brid, as this water will surge down the Inhulets and potentially wash away pontoon bridges. Neither this nor any other motive would stop this strike being a serious warcrime.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:34 pm**

https://twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/15 ... KOR28zBL3Q

“Inside the elite, non-supporters of Putin have to imitate obedience. But in the long term they are ready for disobedience.” In our latest Russia report, we meet a local councillor who’s called on Putin to resign. Producer
@LizaShuvalova
Camera/edit
@AntonChicherov

@BBCNews

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:56 pm**

bjn wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:54 am

Herainestold wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:38 am
This would be a good time for Zelensky to go back to the bargaining table.
Only for Putin to concede to all of Ukraines demands.

Which I doubt was what you intended.

I would like to see both Putin and NATO get a bl..dy nose. Not at the expense of innocent Ukranian people.

If Putin withdrew all his troops to the pre 2014 borders, and Ukraine become a neutral buffer state, that would be a good result.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:18 pm**

Herainestold wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:56 pm

bjn wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:54 am

Herainestold wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:38 am
This would be a good time for Zelensky to go back to the bargaining table.
Only for Putin to concede to all of Ukraines demands.

Which I doubt was what you intended.
I would like to see both Putin and NATO get a bl..dy nose. Not at the expense of innocent Ukranian people.

If Putin withdrew all his troops to the pre 2014 borders, and Ukraine become a neutral buffer state, that would be a good result.

Like Belgium's neutrality in 1914? Or the Netherlands in 1940?

Whatever you think about NATO outside Europe, in Europe, it's a force for peace. And NATO expansion is by countries wanting to join. And not because they want to invade Russia.

Posted: **Wed Sep 14, 2022 11:54 pm**

Regime change in Russia and a return to its socialist roots would be a good result.

Posted: **Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:16 am**

I'm not sure that a few months in 1917 in part of the country counts as "socialist roots"

If you mean Communist, well, that doesn't work. And indeed cannot work.

Posted: **Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:38 pm**

jimbob wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:16 am
I'm not sure that a few months in 1917 in part of the country counts as "socialist roots"

If you mean Communist, well, that doesn't work. And indeed cannot work.

People in Russia were better off in the post Stalin era than they are today, oligarchs excepted.

Scrutable

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