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Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:30 pm
by sheldrake
plodder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:49 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:32 pm
First year Physics at Birmingham uni wasn't A-level review in 1993.
Anecdote alert - but I know some people who were caned off their boxes during their A levels, who went to sh.t schools, and who frankly didn't have a clue what was in the full A-level physics syllabus at the time. This was reflected in their grades.
Did you get straight A's in your A-levels, sheldrake? That would give you the perspective to assess your <cough>, erm, choice of a physics degree at Birmingham.
As you well know, I am a graduate of the school of life and the university of Google.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:55 pm
by sheldrake
But I also know people who got 4 As at A-level before GCSEs were introduced who then went to places like Oxford and Imperial who've looked at these new syllabi with me and had the same view
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pm
by JQH
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 am
Have you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
No I wasn't aware of this. Links?
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:33 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:55 pm
But I also know people who got 4 As at A-level before GCSEs were introduced who then went to places like Oxford and Imperial who've looked at these new syllabi with me and had the same view
It's a common viewpoint, particularly among those who are inclined to also believe that spelling has got worse and standards have slipped because people can no longer name a long list of kings and queens.
But you'll have to do much analysis, including of the full breadth of material taught, and including non-syllabus/examined skills taught, to show this. That probably means making sure you look at the actual course materials as well as the syllabuses.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:57 pm
by sheldrake
Give me an example of something taught at first year in the UK now outside of 'soft skills' that wasnt taught in the 1970s
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm
by sheldrake
JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 am
Have you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
No I wasn't aware of this. Links?
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:57 pm
Give me an example of something taught at first year in the UK now outside of 'soft skills' that wasnt taught in the 1970s
You misunderstand.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pm
by Gfamily
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm
JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 am
Have you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
No I wasn't aware of this. Links?
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
As I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-80) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pm
by sheldrake
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pm
As I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.
And those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm
JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 am
Have you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
No I wasn't aware of this. Links?
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
GR was a third or fourth year course when I did physics in the 90s.
You don't have the maths to do it properly until then.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:15 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pm
As I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.
And those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?
Of an Astronomy degree, not a general physics degree.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:26 pm
by sheldrake
dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:15 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pm
As I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.
And those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?
Of an Astronomy degree, not a general physics degree.
It was a 3rd year course on my mates' BSc physics degree at Sussex in the 80s. He reported most of the class finding the maths hrd.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pm
by monkey
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:50 pm
JQH wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:25 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:40 am
Have you noticed that in UK STEM degrees the material that used to be taught in a 3 year degree is now taught over a 4 year master's degree, with the first year significantly repeating material that used to be learned during A-levels ? I've sat with people who did physics degrees in the 80s looking at modern syllabi and they confirm that their 3rd year subjects are now often being taught in year 4.
No I wasn't aware of this. Links?
Have a read through the year 1 syllabus here
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-bsc/2020
Note that General Relativity isn't even an option until the 4th year of this integrated Masters
https://le.ac.uk/courses/physics-mphys/2020#
But it is covered in both courses in the second year, as part of the Relativity, Quantum Physics and Particles module.
The core of that BSc syllabus is pretty similar to what I did ~20 years ago, albeit structured differently.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:33 pm
by sheldrake
monkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pm
But it is covered in both courses in the second year, as part of the Relativity, Quantum Physics and Particles module.
The core of that BSc syllabus is pretty similar to what I did ~20 years ago, albeit structured differently.
the 2nd year doesn't do quantitative GR. It only does quantitative SR.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:37 pm
by Gfamily
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pm
As I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.
And those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?
GR (with tensors) was an option in the third year for A level entry students in my daughter's Edinburgh degree course in 2012 - it would have been the 4th year for Scottish students entering with Highers.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:40 pm
by Gfamily
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:33 pm
monkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pm
But it is covered in both courses in the second year, as part of the Relativity, Quantum Physics and Particles module.
The core of that BSc syllabus is pretty similar to what I did ~20 years ago, albeit structured differently.
the 2nd year doesn't do quantitative GR. It only does quantitative SR.
Do you have a syllabus from the 70s /80s that does it in the second year?
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:40 pm
by sheldrake
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:37 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:14 pm
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:13 pm
As I recall, my Astronomy BSc (77-79) didn't cover GR as a separate option at all. There were Cosmology options that covered GR as a semi quantitative topic, but no more than that.
And those options were 3rd year rather than part of a master's degree/4th year of study?
It was an option in the third year option for A level entry students in my daughter's Edinburgh degree course in 2012 - it would have been the 4th year for Scottish students entering with Highers.
It's listed only under year 4 now
http://www.drps.ed.ac.uk/19-20/dpt/utphysb.htm
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:41 pm
by sheldrake
Gfamily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:40 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:33 pm
monkey wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:28 pm
But it is covered in both courses in the second year, as part of the Relativity, Quantum Physics and Particles module.
The core of that BSc syllabus is pretty similar to what I did ~20 years ago, albeit structured differently.
the 2nd year doesn't do quantitative GR. It only does quantitative SR.
Do you have a syllabus from the 70s /80s that does it in the second year?
They used to do it in the 3rd year of BSc as an option in the 80s, now it's only 4th.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:45 pm
by dyqik
That's almost certainly more to do with programming than anything else. GR courses don't depend on others so much, just maths and SR, which is a first year course. The maths is pretty separate to the rest of the maths for physics as well.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:49 pm
by sheldrake
dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:45 pm
That's almost certainly more to do with programming than anything else. GR courses don't depend on others so much, just maths and SR, which is a first year course. The maths is pretty separate to the rest of the maths for physics as well.
Quant SR is not a first year course in a lot of universities now. It is still at Oxford and a few other places in a similar league.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:03 pm
by bolo
When GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pm
by sheldrake
bolo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:03 pm
When GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
You can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:26 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pm
bolo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:03 pm
When GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
You can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..
Whereas you've done no work at all to support this claim. Just made comments based on a superficial understanding of course syllabuses.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:33 pm
by sheldrake
dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:26 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pm
bolo wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:03 pm
When GR appears on a syllabus is not going to tell you anything. You can learn a little bit as a special topic as a first year undergrad. You can learn it in a more sophisticated way as an advanced undergrad. You can learn it in a much more sophisticated way as a grad student. These are not equivalent and need not be mutually exclusive.
You can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..
Whereas you've done no work at all to support this claim. Just made comments based on a superficial understanding of course syllabuses.
I've actually posted more independent sources for my claims about educational standards than anybody else so far. Research on A-level grade inflation, comments from admissions tutors about the need to introduce new exams, comments from lecturers about students arriving less prepared etc.. I'm relying on unverifiable personal experience
less than most people up until now.
Re: has education funding increased?
Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:36 pm
by dyqik
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:33 pm
dyqik wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:26 pm
sheldrake wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pm
You can tell a fair amount by the module description. TBH I think you're working quite hard to avoid the conclusion that people generally arrive at university a bit less well-prepared than they used to given the other information we have about A-level grades, the opinion of admissions tutors etc..
Whereas you've done no work at all to support this claim. Just made comments based on a superficial understanding of course syllabuses.
I've actually posted more independent sources for my claims about educational standards than anybody else so far.
And you haven't responded to any of the criticisms of these anecdotes.