OK
So does a decade run from 00 - 09 or 01 - 10?
Are we at the end of the decade or is 2020 the end?
It's all down to whether there was a year '0', isn't it? The general historical consensus is that we went from 1 BC to 1 AD; so logically the first decade would be from 1 AD to 10 AD. Therefore, the end of each decade is the end of the year ending with '0', not '9'. The centuries are the end of each year xx00, and the millenniums are the end of each year ending x000.
Spot on - or at least you would be if we named decades the same as we do centuries and millennia.
But, although we talk about the 15th or 21st century or the 2nd millennium, we don't talk about the 2nd or 5th decade, we talk about the 'twenties' or the 'fifties'.
So the 'twenties' will start on 01/01/2020 and will run up to 31/12/2029.
OK
So does a decade run from 00 - 09 or 01 - 10?
Are we at the end of the decade or is 2020 the end?
It's all down to whether there was a year '0', isn't it? The general historical consensus is that we went from 1 BC to 1 AD; so logically the first decade would be from 1 AD to 10 AD. Therefore, the end of each decade is the end of the year ending with '0', not '9'. The centuries are the end of each year xx00, and the millenniums are the end of each year ending x000.
But no-one brings logic into this, so the social consensus is that we're 12 days from the end of the decade.
Is the written historical record complete and accurate enough that we can count back every year to 1 AD and 1 BC with no breaks. Kind of like tree ring dating, but with written historical records across cultures?
How sure are we that it's actually 2019 years since 1 AD?
I suspect the answer is "very sure", but I don't know which records do this, or whether any of them are in dispute or contradictory, particularly with various calendar changes etc.
I should probably wander off to Wikipedia now.
Considering that 1 BC/1 AD was counted in the Julian Calendar, which only had 355 days to the year, but an extra month added every other year to give it 377 days, and when re-aligned to the Gregorian Calendar there were about 14 days 'lost', who knows?
I recall that the birth of Jesus is generally reckoned to be about 4 BC, rather than 1 BC or 1 AD, so we could be out by 3-5 years anyway. I'd just follow the social consensus, because trying to bring logic into it would result in holes big enough to drive a truck through.
Re: Decade
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:05 am
by dyqik
I know the issues with dating Jesus, as there's no contemptorary records of him at all. But I'm wondering if we can reliably count back 2019 years at all.
with respect to the calendar, I assume recognizing years is easy enough, as solstices are fairly easily recognized (hence leap months, etc. being ancient). It's consistently counting them and aligning different historical records I wonder about.
Re: Decade
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:09 am
by dyqik
I could be way off though, as you might only need Roman and Vatican records.
I could be way off though, as you might only need Roman and Vatican records.
Big SFW image spoilered: Spoiler:
Man 896-897 had 5 Popes in two years. Was that the short-lived experiment when the new pope was chosen Hunger Games style?
Fun fact: in the 1550s Popes were chosen via a dance off and in 1846 Gregorius 14 became Pope after winning a BMX contest, a fact honoured by the BMXer term "to Pope-a-wheelie".
Re: Decade
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:11 am
by lpm
Those popes all died in a nice series murders. One of them put the corpse of his predecessor on trial and found him guilty.
Those popes all died in a nice series murders. One of them put the corpse of his predecessor on trial and found him guilty.
But the trial was then revoked, until it was later un-revoked.
Re: Decade
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 11:28 am
by lpm
Pope Formosus 891 - 896 died.
Pope Boniface VI 896 lasted 15 days. Mysteriously "died of gout". That's their excuse and they're sticking with it.
Pope Stephen VI 896 - 897. Put Pope Formosus on trial , found him guilty, cut off the three blessing fingers of his right hand and chucked him in the Tiber. Got himself strangled.
Pope Romanus 897 lasted three months. Got himself overthrown by Stephen VI followers and somehow died.
Pope Theodore II lasted 20 days. Annulled the Formosus verdict. Died for unknown reasons.
I could be way off though, as you might only need Roman and Vatican records.
Big SFW image spoilered: Spoiler:
Sure. But my question is about when was that carved and what contemporary sources did they use? It's a minor niggle, I admit, but the AD dating system wasn't even invented until 525, and not really used widely until 800 or so. So I'm worrying about the mapping from the contemptorary dating systems to the AD system before 525-800.
Pope Boniface VI 896 lasted 15 days. Mysteriously "died of gout". That's their excuse and they're sticking with it.
Pope Stephen VI 896 - 897. Put Pope Formosus on trial , found him guilty, cut off the three blessing fingers of his right hand and chucked him in the Tiber. Got himself strangled.
Pope Romanus 897 lasted three months. Got himself overthrown by Stephen VI followers and somehow died.
Pope Theodore II lasted 20 days. Annulled the Formosus verdict. Died for unknown reasons.
All good fun. BRING BACK THESE TRADITIONS.
Theodore was then followed by two who claimed the papacy, John IX and Serguis III. The latter was exiled, but was later elected as Pope, so all was well.
the Wiki wrote:Because Sergius III had reputedly ordered the murder of his two immediate predecessors, Leo V and Christopher, and allegedly fathered an illegitimate son who later became pope (John XI), his pontificate has been variously described as "dismal and disgraceful", and "efficient and ruthless".
Re: Decade
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:00 pm
by bmforre
From Wikipedia:
Rodrigo Borgia (1431–1503) was born in Xàtiva, also in the Kingdom of Valencia, to Isabel de Borja i Cavanilles and Jofré Llançol i Escrivà. He studied law at Bologna and was appointed as cardinal by his uncle, Alfons Borgia, Pope Callixtus III. He was elected Pope in 1492, taking the regnal name Alexander VI. While a cardinal, he maintained a long-term illicit relationship with Vannozza dei Cattanei, with whom he had four children: Giovanni; Cesare; Lucrezia; and Gioffre. Rodrigo also had children by other women, including one daughter with his mistress, Giulia Farnese.
I could be way off though, as you might only need Roman and Vatican records.
Ideally you need a set of multiple independent records where the mutual overlap covers the whole time period in question, and there are always at least two independent but contiguous timelines in agreement. I'm pretty sure we don't have that.
A person, about whom the Gospels were written, almost certainly existed; but my have been very different to the descriptions given. Many clever people have tried to tie down a definitive timeline for that person's birth and death, but it seems there is none about which a consensus has formed, and barring some major discoveries of new information, one is unlikely to form.
I could be way off though, as you might only need Roman and Vatican records.
Ideally you need a set of multiple independent records where the mutual overlap covers the whole time period in question, and there are always at least two independent but contiguous timelines in agreement. I'm pretty sure we don't have that.
A person, about whom the Gospels were written, almost certainly existed; but my have been very different to the descriptions given. Many clever people have tried to tie down a definitive timeline for that person's birth and death, but it seems there is none about which a consensus has formed, and barring some major discoveries of new information, one is unlikely to form.
Do the independent records need to come from one region, ie the Middle East? Surely there were records from (areas that became) North Africa, India and China with some common events or people mentioned? We're not trying to tie down the alleged life of Jesus but rather the chronology of our current dating system.
I could be way off though, as you might only need Roman and Vatican records.
Ideally you need a set of multiple independent records where the mutual overlap covers the whole time period in question, and there are always at least two independent but contiguous timelines in agreement. I'm pretty sure we don't have that.
A person, about whom the Gospels were written, almost certainly existed; but my have been very different to the descriptions given. Many clever people have tried to tie down a definitive timeline for that person's birth and death, but it seems there is none about which a consensus has formed, and barring some major discoveries of new information, one is unlikely to form.
Do the independent records need to come from one region, ie the Middle East? Surely there were records from (areas that became) North Africa, India and China with some common events or people mentioned? We're not trying to tie down the alleged life of Jesus but rather the chronology of our current dating system.
My mental model of this is that we have the current dating system, and we have records of events from different cultures histories, sort of going back as a tree (and my mental model is pretty much based on dendrochronology, but that's a different kind of tree). We know what order things happened in in each history, but we don't necessarily know whether an event in one history happened before or after one in another history because of gaps in records, etc.
Obviously which histories are included depends on what question you are asking of it.
If I'd ever been given the option of studying history, I'd probably know why this is a stupid question.
I know the issues with dating Jesus, as there's no contemptorary records of him at all. But I'm wondering if we can reliably count back 2019 years at all.
I would think so, we have historical records going back to Roman, Greek and Egyptian times to name a few in this hemisphere. We know when rulers of various countries ruled and events happened and can place them in a continuous sequence, even if not continuous in any given individual country. Other notables such as popes are also well documented.
My mental model of this is that we have the current dating system, and we have records of events from different cultures histories, sort of going back as a tree (and my mental model is pretty much based on dendrochronology, but that's a different kind of tree). We know what order things happened in in each history, but we don't necessarily know whether an event in one history happened before or after one in another history because of gaps in records, etc.
Obviously which histories are included depends on what question you are asking of it.
If I'd ever been given the option of studying history, I'd probably know why this is a stupid question.
Can predictable astronomical events such as solar eclipses determine how ages relate? According to Wiki, Chinese astronomers have been recording solar and lunar eclipses since 750BCE and have 1600 records. Can we not now give these predictions absolute dates? In a similar way can we do that with the eclipse observations of other cultures? If this can be done, then we can understand the relation between events in unconnected histories.
Re: Decade
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:12 pm
by dyqik
Yes, that can absolutely be done, but it's not easy. Paleoastronomy is one field that does this.
Re: Decade
Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:57 pm
by greyspoke
2020 will be a cool year for cricketers and opticians anyway.
