Full English

[Allo V Psycho]

I'm Scottish first, then European (even if the bastards took away my citizenship without my consent) then, for legal reasons only, a UK citizen. I don't think I would ever call myself British voluntarily. Funnily enough, despite having only rudimentary French and exactly 50 words of Spanish (thanks to Elizabeth Smith https://www.elisabeth-smith.co.uk/spanish.php) I feel more at home in European cities than in American ones.

Martin Y
The God-awful toe-curling horridness of sectarianism is an ugly side of that identity to have to live with but you don't get to choose your family and nobody voluntarily gives up their privilege so here we are

Yes, it is awful, but you can choose your family to some extent. My sister married a Tim, and both families absorbed it without apparent difficulty, even my Uncle Roddie, who was Rangers' most assiduous fan, given free season tickets for life, and whose arrival in the stadium was sometimes announced on the PA system. He even went to 'The Chapel' for the wedding

The two communities are actually very similar culturally, other than over religion. Separate education in Catholic schools really hasn't helped bring with reducing divisions.

[El Pollo Diablo]

I'd point out that in certain parts of England, there is some sectarianism. Orange Order marches are common on some bits of the Lancastrian coast where there was plenty of Irish immigration, such as Liverpool.

[discovolante]

I'd point out that in certain parts of England, there is some sectarianism. Orange Order marches are common on some bits of the Lancastrian coast where there was plenty of Irish immigration, such as Liverpool.

Fair enough.

Reminds me, before I went to uni, when I was living in Norfolk, I was talking to an older woman at the bus stop and she asked me where I was going to uni etc. I said Liverpool (sectarian issues weren't at the forefront of my mind when I was 18 sorry) and she said 'Oh, all I remember about Liverpool is that it's full of dogs and the Irish!'. So yeah that's another thing about England, pricks about Irish people.

[bmforre]

... you can choose your family to some extent. My sister married a Tim, and both families absorbed it without apparent difficulty ...

What is a Tim in this context?

[El Pollo Diablo]

I'd point out that in certain parts of England, there is some sectarianism. Orange Order marches are common on some bits of the Lancastrian coast where there was plenty of Irish immigration, such as Liverpool.

Fair enough.

Reminds me, before I went to uni, when I was living in Norfolk, I was talking to an older woman at the bus stop and she asked me where I was going to uni etc. I said Liverpool (sectarian issues weren't at the forefront of my mind when I was 18 sorry) and she said 'Oh, all I remember about Liverpool is that it's full of dogs and the Irish!'. So yeah that's another thing about England, pricks about Irish people.

Yeah, particularly post-war, people like my grandad, who lived in Sahf London and was a chippie on building sites, would complain about the Irish coming over here and taking his work.

[bmforre]

Was Arthur Wellesley Irish or English?

[El Pollo Diablo]

Yes.

[bmforre]

Yes.

D'you mean part Irish and Full English?

[Woodchopper]

Was Arthur Wellesley Irish or English?

He was Anglo-Irish, a distinct group which were protestant and descended from settlers who came from England (and in some cases Wales).

[discovolante]

I'd point out that in certain parts of England, there is some sectarianism. Orange Order marches are common on some bits of the Lancastrian coast where there was plenty of Irish immigration, such as Liverpool.

Fair enough.

Reminds me, before I went to uni, when I was living in Norfolk, I was talking to an older woman at the bus stop and she asked me where I was going to uni etc. I said Liverpool (sectarian issues weren't at the forefront of my mind when I was 18 sorry) and she said 'Oh, all I remember about Liverpool is that it's full of dogs and the Irish!'. So yeah that's another thing about England, pricks about Irish people.

Yeah, particularly post-war, people like my grandad, who lived in Sahf London and was a chippie on building sites, would complain about the Irish coming over here and taking his work.

That woman's comment has stuck in my mind forever more for some reason. I mean she stopped short of having to use the full phrase didn't she. Obviously I didn't say anything, I think I just gawped.

[Chris Preston]

Was Arthur Wellesley Irish or English?

Anglo-Irish. The Anglo-Irish often thought of themselves as Irish, but of course different to the native Irish.

Of course being a descendent of immigrants, I don't get this anti-immigrant, don't pollute our culture nonsense. I don't know that I feel particularly Australian, I spend quite a bit of time criticising aspects of behaviour here. I don't own an Australian flag and wouldn't fly one if I did. I don’t sing the national anthem, because it is such an awful song, but was supportive of changing the words to make it more inclusive.

Given all that, there are a lot of good things about living here, but probably I feel most affinity for the city of my birth, but that is mostly nostalgia and comfort.

[Chris Preston]

Was Arthur Wellesley Irish or English?

He was Anglo-Irish, a distinct group which were protestant and descended from settlers who came from England (and in some cases Wales).

And large numbers from Scotland.

[Chris Preston]

I'd point out that in certain parts of England, there is some sectarianism. Orange Order marches are common on some bits of the Lancastrian coast where there was plenty of Irish immigration, such as Liverpool.

Fair enough.

Reminds me, before I went to uni, when I was living in Norfolk, I was talking to an older woman at the bus stop and she asked me where I was going to uni etc. I said Liverpool (sectarian issues weren't at the forefront of my mind when I was 18 sorry) and she said 'Oh, all I remember about Liverpool is that it's full of dogs and the Irish!'. So yeah that's another thing about England, pricks about Irish people.

Reminds me, for other reasons, of a story my father told me of his work as a telegraph messenger at the start of WWII. On one day he was asked by his boss to go with a senior army officer to another building where he would be responsible for getting any important telegrams sent off to Canberra. They entered the lift to go to the meeting room and a tea lady was already in the lift. On the next floor, a Colonel got on and asked the officer already in the lift if he had heard about the Fairburn disaster and explained what had happened. A plane had crashed prior to landing in Canberra killing three cabinet members and the Chief of General Staff. As they were leaving the lift, they could here the tea lady say "Good" in an emphatic voice. It turned out she was of Irish-Australian stock. Her family had likely been in Australia for 3 generations, but they still had not forgiven the English and, by extension, the Australian government.

[bmforre]

Was Arthur Wellesley Irish or English?

He was Anglo-Irish, a distinct group which were protestant and descended from settlers who came from England (and in some cases Wales).

And large numbers from Scotland.

Hybrid vigour, or heterosis as weed science has it?
The purer English are weaker than this powerful mix?

[Woodchopper]

Was Arthur Wellesley Irish or English?

He was Anglo-Irish, a distinct group which were protestant and descended from settlers who came from England (and in some cases Wales).

And large numbers from Scotland.

I disagree. The Scots-Irish in Ulster had a very different culture and history.

[Chris Preston]

There were quite a lot of Scottish families that became part of the Anglo-Irish land-owners. The Leslie's for example.

[Little waster]

Yes, fair enough. I'm not well-versed in sectarian tensions at all, to be honest. I probably should have restricted my comments to people from England, and been a bit less dogmatic.

I was going to say earlier that cluelessness about sectarian tensions in the UK is another English thing, but then I got worried it was just me, but now I know that there are at least two of us

Have you considered becoming Northern Ireland Secretary?

[discovolante]

Yes, fair enough. I'm not well-versed in sectarian tensions at all, to be honest. I probably should have restricted my comments to people from England, and been a bit less dogmatic.

I was going to say earlier that cluelessness about sectarian tensions in the UK is another English thing, but then I got worried it was just me, but now I know that there are at least two of us

Have you considered becoming Northern Ireland Secretary?

I may even be (marginally) more qualified than her!

[Woodchopper]

There were quite a lot of Scottish families that became part of the Anglo-Irish land-owners. The Leslie's for example.

Fair enough, that’s right.

[Martin Y]

... you can choose your family to some extent. My sister married a Tim, and both families absorbed it without apparent difficulty ...

What is a Tim in this context?

A Catholic. Several other boy's names which indicate Irish descent serve a similar function. Paddy or Mick are widely familiar but imply Irish while Tim just implies Catholic. It's also the slang term with the least hostile nuance and the one Catholics (including my cousins) may use informally to describe themselves. At the other end of the hostility scale is Tadhg and I have no clue why but it's something of an alarm bell if you hear someone use that one.

[Gfamily]

... you can choose your family to some extent. My sister married a Tim, and both families absorbed it without apparent difficulty ...

What is a Tim in this context?

A Catholic. Several other boy's names which indicate Irish descent serve a similar function. Paddy or Mick are widely familiar but imply Irish while Tim just implies Catholic. It's also the slang term with the least hostile nuance and the one Catholics (including my cousins) may use informally to describe themselves. At the other end of the hostility scale is Tadhg and I have no clue why but it's something of an alarm bell if you hear someone use that one.

It seems that "Tim" is a Scottish term - there was a Glasgow catholic street gang called the "Tim Malloys" in the early 1900's

[Tuesday]

Also Tadhg is usually anglicised to Timothy so that's probably where Tim comes from.

[Allo V Psycho]

... you can choose your family to some extent. My sister married a Tim, and both families absorbed it without apparent difficulty ...

What is a Tim in this context?

A Catholic. Several other boy's names which indicate Irish descent serve a similar function. Paddy or Mick are widely familiar but imply Irish while Tim just implies Catholic. It's also the slang term with the least hostile nuance and the one Catholics (including my cousins) may use informally to describe themselves. At the other end of the hostility scale is Tadhg and I have no clue why but it's something of an alarm bell if you hear someone use that one.

Yes, Catholics may self ID as Tims, which why I used it here. And Billy is often used for Protestant. As in the song

"Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm a Tim,
Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm a Tim,
Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm no sae f.cking silly,
Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm a Tim"

[Lew Dolby]

"Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm a Tim,
Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm a Tim,
Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm no sae f.cking silly,
Ah'm no a Billy, ah'm a Tim"

Personally, I've always found that thing of writing how someone else speaks english full of mis-spelling so that someone saying it in your accent would sound vaguely like the original's accent to be fairly insulting.

In the above, maybe the origin dialect would use no for not, but ah'm and sae for I'm and so ! I'd take convincing that the original speaker / singer thought they weren't saying I'm and so.

[sorry, personal hobby-horse ever since our local paper where I grew up (Lancashire] used to publish "dialect tales" that were mainly not dialect but just badly spelled english. grrr]

[raven]

If someone says they're English I have visions of people waving St George's Crosses around and telling people they don't like to "go back where they came from". That's not a group of people I want to be associated with.

Oh.

Well, I'm English. Because I've got no claim to Scottish or Welsh or Irish. And I quite like English things like Morris Dancing and Mummer's plays and stone circles and cream teas and White Horses and general irreverence for authority, so I'm happy to be English. I've even been known to hang an English flag from the house during the World Cup, but then I'm personally of the opinion we should reclaiming it from those racist c*nts who want to make mean something it doesn't. Because as Lammy says, we're a mongrel nation and have been for centuries.

I suppose I describe myself as a Brit to people who wouldn't understand the distinction, though. And if I'm talking to other English people, then I'm a Midlander with Brummie & Yorkshire roots.

Kids are bl..dy southerners though. Eldest once tried to argue the Midlands doesn't exist to wind me up, the git.

MrRaven is even more of a mongrel than that. He's got Irish, South African, Yorkshire, a dab of French somewhere, all sorts. And if that's not enough, he grew up in the Fens. (He put 'White other' and then a list of things on the census, including European.) Confusingly he supports Scotland in the rugby, cos it's where he went to uni.