Party Racism

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Vertigowooyay
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Party Racism

Post by Vertigowooyay » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Why are the two main parties riven with racism? Labour has a clear issue with anti-semitism and now this from the Tories:


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... SApp_Other

This is just as horrific as the stories of anti-Semitism in Labour, and now we even get the farce of playing one form of discrimination off against another:
Among the other councillors and former councillors whose racist or Islamophobic messages were seen by the Guardian, the councillor Roger Taylor from Calderdale, West Yorkshire, questioned why prominent British Muslim columnist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown was in the UK. In response to a post about the journalist hitting back at claims she is anti-British, Taylor wrote last October: “Why is she even in the country?”

When approached for comment, Taylor said he would be binning the Guardian’s email. “We are in an election and you are raising this to deflect from the antisemites in the Labour party,” he said.
So what is it about politics - seemingly local level politics in particular (but certainly not exclusively) - that attracts such rampant bigotry from every side? And how can it be combatted? Johnson has just weaseled out of a full investigation of Islamophobia in the party in favour of a nebulous general look at prejudice. Labour are being told they haven’t done nearly enough.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by dyqik » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:53 pm

As I said elsewhere: If you're in a Lab-Con marginal, you have a choice between a racist party of racists with a severely racist leader who's published many racist newspaper columns; and a party with nominally anti-racist policies, made up of some number of racists and many anti-racists, with a leader who has at least turned a blind eye to racism in the party.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by jimbob » Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:00 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:53 pm
As I said elsewhere: If you're in a Lab-Con marginal, you have a choice between a racist party of racists with a severely racist leader who's published many racist newspaper columns; and a party with nominally anti-racist policies, made up of some number of racists and many anti-racists, with a leader who has at least turned a blind eye to racism in the party.
Which is my situation, and near the constituencies of the "lovely" Wintertons - especially Ann, who managed to get suspended not once, but twice for telling racist jokes, and then still made racist comments whilst retaining the Tory whip.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Party Racism

Post by secret squirrel » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:55 pm

To be fair though, I'd rate the chance of a Corbyn government putting into place some overtly anti-Jewish legislation as essentially zero, while the chance of a Tory government enacting some explicitly anti-Muslim laws in the future is quite high.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by dyqik » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:57 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:55 pm
To be fair though, I'd rate the chance of a Corbyn government putting into place some overtly anti-Jewish legislation as essentially zero, while the chance of a Tory government enacting some explicitly anti-Muslim laws in the future is quite high.
That's a very simple and clear statement of the point I was trying to make above!

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Re: Party Racism

Post by secret squirrel » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:59 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:57 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:55 pm
To be fair though, I'd rate the chance of a Corbyn government putting into place some overtly anti-Jewish legislation as essentially zero, while the chance of a Tory government enacting some explicitly anti-Muslim laws in the future is quite high.
That's a very simple and clear statement of the point I was trying to make above!
High five!

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Re: Party Racism

Post by tom p » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:04 pm

Here's another fine example of tory racism.
Well, maybe "racism" is technically the wrong word, but bashing gypsies is indistinguishable from racism on every moral level & the overlap with known racists historically is, of course, significant.

I'd like to take issue with the OP though. Labour isn't an antisemitic party & it's not "riven" with anti-semitism, & to suggest that Corbyn is an anti-semite is just ridiculous.
He's an incompetent, he's keen on defending his friends (like most politicians are) and he is broadly (and significantly) on the Palestinian side vs Israel as regards the occupation of Palestine.
Regarding his support for palestine, he has been a fellow-traveller with a lot of middle-eastern muslims. A not insignificant proportion of whom either come from generally anti-semitic cultures or are avowedly anti-semitic themselves. It would be almost impossible to have a pro-palestine movement without some people who are also anti-semitic. Agreeing with someone on one thing is not the same as agreeing with them on everything.

Despite him being a supporter of his friends and fellow travellers, the labour party under Corbyn has adopted stronger rules against anti-semitism than it ever had. They were introduced fumblingly & Corbyn stupidly (because he's incompetent) was too hands-off as regards the disciplining committees, but they are there.
Are there some people in a party that was number 500k people who are anti-semites? Clearly, yes. Does the party welcome these people? No. Are there some people on the left, but not members of the labour party, who are anti-semitic? Definitely. Can the labour party do anything about these people? No. Do people who want to attack Corbyn (either tories, right-wing media or centrist pro-israel labour MPs) deliberately conflate these groups (and also conflate the actions of fascists who were harassing labour leaders before 2015) and act like the whole thing is entirely Corbyn's fault and a problem of labour, and the left of labour in particular? Yes, clearly.

To liken labour anti-semitism to tory racism generally (and islamophobia in particular) is simply buying the (mostly pro-tory) media line.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by nekomatic » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:17 pm

tom p wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:04 pm
Are there some people in a party that was number 500k people who are anti-semites? Clearly, yes. Does the party welcome these people? No.
It seems to select an unfortunately large number of them as candidates, though.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by mottainai » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:20 pm

Economist Simon Wren-Lewis has looked at evidence of Corbyn’s alleged anti-semitism and after looking wider into the contexts decided it does not hold up. Though says “Now you can fairly accuse Corbyn of not being careful in who he associates with.”
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/1 ... m.html?m=1
Worth a read.
Last edited by El Pollo Diablo on Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by cvb » Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:25 pm

tom p wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:04 pm
Here's another fine example of tory racism.
Well, maybe "racism" is technically the wrong word, but bashing gypsies is indistinguishable from racism on every moral level & the overlap with known racists historically is, of course, significant.

I'd like to take issue with the OP though. Labour isn't an antisemitic party & it's not "riven" with anti-semitism, & to suggest that Corbyn is an anti-semite is just ridiculous.
He's an incompetent, he's keen on defending his friends (like most politicians are) and he is broadly (and significantly) on the Palestinian side vs Israel as regards the occupation of Palestine.
Regarding his support for palestine, he has been a fellow-traveller with a lot of middle-eastern muslims. A not insignificant proportion of whom either come from generally anti-semitic cultures or are avowedly anti-semitic themselves. It would be almost impossible to have a pro-palestine movement without some people who are also anti-semitic. Agreeing with someone on one thing is not the same as agreeing with them on everything.

Despite him being a supporter of his friends and fellow travellers, the labour party under Corbyn has adopted stronger rules against anti-semitism than it ever had. They were introduced fumblingly & Corbyn stupidly (because he's incompetent) was too hands-off as regards the disciplining committees, but they are there.
Are there some people in a party that was number 500k people who are anti-semites? Clearly, yes. Does the party welcome these people? No. Are there some people on the left, but not members of the labour party, who are anti-semitic? Definitely. Can the labour party do anything about these people? No. Do people who want to attack Corbyn (either tories, right-wing media or centrist pro-israel labour MPs) deliberately conflate these groups (and also conflate the actions of fascists who were harassing labour leaders before 2015) and act like the whole thing is entirely Corbyn's fault and a problem of labour, and the left of labour in particular? Yes, clearly.

To liken labour anti-semitism to tory racism generally (and islamophobia in particular) is simply buying the (mostly pro-tory) media line.
Very well put. I had written a similar but not as long or as good a reply.

Being pro Palestine does not de facto make you anti semetic.

It really f.cks me off when racist tories get away with this shite.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by tom p » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:21 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:17 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:04 pm
Are there some people in a party that was number 500k people who are anti-semites? Clearly, yes. Does the party welcome these people? No.
It seems to select an unfortunately large number of them as candidates, though.
Obviously 1 is too many, but how many can you actually think of? Out of 600+ westminster candidates and about 20,000 local council candidates.
I can think of a handful. One of whom was an ignorant bloke who (claims he) didn't know where "Shylock" came from as an insult, which is possible - many people haven't seen or read any shakespeare, especially working class blokes from Ilford and other such shitholes.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by monkey » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:27 pm

tom p wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 3:04 pm
Here's another fine example of tory racism.
Well, maybe "racism" is technically the wrong word, but bashing gypsies is indistinguishable from racism on every moral level & the overlap with known racists historically is, of course, significant.

I'd like to take issue with the OP though. Labour isn't an antisemitic party & it's not "riven" with anti-semitism, & to suggest that Corbyn is an anti-semite is just ridiculous.
He's an incompetent, he's keen on defending his friends (like most politicians are) and he is broadly (and significantly) on the Palestinian side vs Israel as regards the occupation of Palestine.
Regarding his support for palestine, he has been a fellow-traveller with a lot of middle-eastern muslims. A not insignificant proportion of whom either come from generally anti-semitic cultures or are avowedly anti-semitic themselves. It would be almost impossible to have a pro-palestine movement without some people who are also anti-semitic. Agreeing with someone on one thing is not the same as agreeing with them on everything.

Despite him being a supporter of his friends and fellow travellers, the labour party under Corbyn has adopted stronger rules against anti-semitism than it ever had. They were introduced fumblingly & Corbyn stupidly (because he's incompetent) was too hands-off as regards the disciplining committees, but they are there.
Are there some people in a party that was number 500k people who are anti-semites? Clearly, yes. Does the party welcome these people? No. Are there some people on the left, but not members of the labour party, who are anti-semitic? Definitely. Can the labour party do anything about these people? No. Do people who want to attack Corbyn (either tories, right-wing media or centrist pro-israel labour MPs) deliberately conflate these groups (and also conflate the actions of fascists who were harassing labour leaders before 2015) and act like the whole thing is entirely Corbyn's fault and a problem of labour, and the left of labour in particular? Yes, clearly.

To liken labour anti-semitism to tory racism generally (and islamophobia in particular) is simply buying the (mostly pro-tory) media line.
Most of this is sensible, but I don't think the big boss of any organisation should be meddling in the disciplinary processes (if that's what you meant, making sure it's doing its job in a broad sense is different). That sh.t should be as independent as possible - especially in politics - which is still a problem that Labour has, despite their other improvements.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by tom p » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:43 pm

That's a good point.
I don't mean that he should have been meddling in the committees in a secretive manner (something he is accused of having done), but I do think that this is politics & not work - he should have required the full finding (including the exact wording of every accusation & supposedly anti-semitic statement) be made public along with the outcome.
He should have required all the claims to be investigated in a short time-frame.
And once it had become weaponised against him, he could have insisted that for allegations of anti-semitism, after the committee had gathered evidence, he would decide, and would do so expeditiously, so that the cases were cleared-up & so that nobody could be in any doubt about his position - he would take responsibility.
But he's an incompetent dithering tw.t, so he didn't.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by monkey » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:19 pm

tom p wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:43 pm
That's a good point.
I don't mean that he should have been meddling in the committees in a secretive manner (something he is accused of having done), but I do think that this is politics & not work - he should have required the full finding (including the exact wording of every accusation & supposedly anti-semitic statement) be made public along with the outcome.
He should have required all the claims to be investigated in a short time-frame.
And once it had become weaponised against him, he could have insisted that for allegations of anti-semitism, after the committee had gathered evidence, he would decide, and would do so expeditiously, so that the cases were cleared-up & so that nobody could be in any doubt about his position - he would take responsibility.
But he's an incompetent dithering tw.t, so he didn't.
I don't think he's an incompetent tw.t, but he has made mistakes. I'd agree that his response was weak (at first, then later on it was too late) and that he could have used his position to visibly influence the NEC to sort things out with the rules and whatnot sooner. But he should not be taking over the decisions himself.

As for it being politics, I think that's why there's a greater need for independence than for a business or similar. There's additional loyalties knocking about and what I see to be a greater need to hide the embarrassing stuff away.

Still, Labour do seem to deal with this stuff better than the Tories, who will suspend, but then quietly let you back in for votes before any proper sanctions have been dealt out.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by Vertigowooyay » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:21 pm

With Labour it’s a grassroots problem which has been allowed to fester and is far more prevalent. The first reaction I found when Tom Watson stood down was a grass roots party member saying he’d done more for Israel than his constituency. You don’t have to look hard or far for similar and worse. I have friends who have criticized Corbyn (not about anti-semitism) being called “f.cking Jews”. I’ve stood on the line in my archery club only to hear someone I previously thought was a nice bloke and Labour campaigner say bluntly “I f.cking hate Jews”. It’s pervasive and the reaction from the top has been wanting.

And it’s one thing to not agree with everything someone says on the same platform but quite another to refer to them as “my very good friend”, as he’s done with someone who may agree with him on Palestine but has also called for homosexuals and adulterers to be executed. It’s tone deaf at best. It’s not because he’s Corbyn, it’s the same standard I hold Johnson to when he hobnobs with fascists.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by Lew Dolby » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:52 pm

What's the evidence for "far more prevalent" ??

I, OTOH, find I'm surrounded in this mostly rural environment by Tory voters most of whom are openly anti-islam in just about any form you care to mention short of actual violence.

They are against women wearing overtly islamic dress; against recent plans to convert a derelict building into a muslem cebtre; think "they" should integrate more but wouldn't want any as neighbours or wouldn't give one a job - so not good at logic either.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by Vertigowooyay » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:28 pm

I meant far more prevalent in terms of how frequently I’ve encountered it in any time - not just on social media, which is obviously a much newer factor, but in regular interactions. It’s not scientific, I know, but from being in lefty circles where I’d not encountered it previously I now do experience it. I have Jewish friends whose identity was never previously in conflict with their politics who have experienced more anti-semitism from grass roots Labour (so really, Momentum) since Corbyn became party leader. Obviously anecdote is never data, so this is only personal experience.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by Bewildered » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:03 pm

secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:55 pm
To be fair though, I'd rate the chance of a Corbyn government putting into place some overtly anti-Jewish legislation as essentially zero, while the chance of a Tory government enacting some explicitly anti-Muslim laws in the future is quite high.
Yes.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by tom p » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:55 pm

Vertigowooyay wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:28 pm
I meant far more prevalent in terms of how frequently I’ve encountered it in any time - not just on social media, which is obviously a much newer factor, but in regular interactions. It’s not scientific, I know, but from being in lefty circles where I’d not encountered it previously I now do experience it. I have Jewish friends whose identity was never previously in conflict with their politics who have experienced more anti-semitism from grass roots Labour (so really, Momentum) since Corbyn became party leader. Obviously anecdote is never data, so this is only personal experience.
Of course, Momentum membership and labour membership are not necessarily the same thing.
But, that aside, people (you included) should report it. Without reporting, how can the people not in the grassroots know about it? I'm not jewish and have never encountered anti-semitism in my life. Ever. Not even people I knew who were racists agains 'p.kis' would be anti-semitic (I hasten to add that those I didn't consider those racist people friends, nor left-wingers and none of them, as far as I am aware, was a member of the labour party or any other leftist group) at least not around me.
That blog that was linked to earlier who looked at the actual evidence said that it seemed there were 300 credible reports of anti-semitism by labour members. Out of 500k, that's not many (although it is, of course, 300 too many), so there's either under-reporting, too high a bar set for credible or your experience is a local thing.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by Stephanie » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:21 pm

Bewildered wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:03 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:55 pm
To be fair though, I'd rate the chance of a Corbyn government putting into place some overtly anti-Jewish legislation as essentially zero, while the chance of a Tory government enacting some explicitly anti-Muslim laws in the future is quite high.
Yes.

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Re: Party Racism

Post by Gfamily » Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:51 pm

I see the Home Secretary is seeking to criminalise unauthorised Traveller and Gypsy camps, against the advice of the police, who see increased provision as a better was of tackling the problem.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by Martin_B » Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:05 am

Gfamily wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:51 pm
I see the Home Secretary is seeking to criminalise unauthorised Traveller and Gypsy camps, against the advice of the police, who see increased provision as a better was of tackling the problem.
Why am I not surprised by this? A continuation of idea that experts are to be ignored, or even actively disagreed with.
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Re: Party Racism

Post by Bewildered » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:43 am

Stephanie wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:21 pm
Bewildered wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:03 pm
secret squirrel wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:55 pm
To be fair though, I'd rate the chance of a Corbyn government putting into place some overtly anti-Jewish legislation as essentially zero, while the chance of a Tory government enacting some explicitly anti-Muslim laws in the future is quite high.
Yes.

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