Scrutable

Thought I'd start a cleaning/disinfecting thread as I don't think there is an appropriate one (OK, I know, we've got quite a lot of threads now ).

We're getting supermarket deliveries but my father's now worrying about catching the virus from the packaging. I was thinking this was a bit excessive but we're disagreeing so I want to run this by you good people first and maybe your answers might be generally useful for others...

We know there are these figures for how long the virus remains viable on different surfaces (up to 24 hours cardboard, 72 hours plastic and so on). I've suggested that when the delivery comes I simply wipe things with kitchen roll and one of these cheap anti-bacterial sprays:.
My father reckons this wouldn't be sufficient, so I've suggesting quarantining things for three days, but this is awkward with fridge stuff so he wants to wrap milk containers, packets of minced beef etc. in newspaper and wait three days before using them.

I've found this article which says to me that it's best just to rinse things with warm water. Does this sound right? Any other thoughts?

My wife suggested wiping everything from the supermarket with 70% alcohol. I said I thought it was probably a bit overboard and didn't seem to form part of official advice (and also that I couldn't really be arsed), so we didn't.

We're both in our twenties, though, and there's not that many cases where we live.

Quarantining non-fridge stuff and wiping fridge things down seems a lowish-effort version. I think the advice about warm water was specifically for vegetables (which USians call "produce"), due to the health risks of eating bleach or soap - but using soap does seem to be important for getting rid of the virus.

If you want to be super safe, here is what you do with your supermarket food. Might be a little on the paranoid side, but hey, better safe than sorry.
Video is 13 minutes, presented by an American doctor type person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjDuwc9KBps

I'm being made to change my clothes every time I go out
Now I have to go out again to get extra laundry soap

I’ve just been washing everything with soap and water...

If you are cleaning following a known or suspected case than I heartily recommend this

Is that viable on different surfaces, or RNA detectable on different surfaces? Because there is rather a large difference.

Ah - here is the paper: Aerosol and Surface Stability of SARS-CoV-2 as Compared with SARS-CoV-1 March 17, 2020 DOI: 10.1056/NEJMc2004973

and here is an approachable summary: Science Alert: How Long Does Coronavirus Last on Surfaces?

As for disinfection: soap and water should be sufficient:

Virology Down Under: Why does soap work so well on SARS-CoV-2? Posted on March 9, 2020 AuthorIan M Mackay, PhD (EIC)

Jesus, guys. A couple of weeks ago the only government advice was to wash your hands, now you're washing your clothes if you've been round the block?

Only about 200,000 people in the UK are probably infectious right now - a large number for spreading it around the population but a tiny number for your personal risk. Knock out 90% of the risk, then knock out 90% of the remainder, then knock out another 90% of the residual. 99.9% risk reduction is adequate if you are basically not meeting anyone except a person on the checkout. It's very different if you are at work and near loads of people all day long. This is like the risk of not wearing a seat belt - tiny if you drive a mile to the local supermarket once a week, very stupid if you drive 8 hours a day every day.

Useful info here, thanks. Based on the above we're going to wash the supermarket delivery items where possible. And where not possible such as stuff in cardboard boxes we'll quarantine them (except for example frozen cod fillets in a cardboard box which I've agreed to wrap in something before sticking in the freezer).

And mail etc. through the letterbox: we'll just quarantine it on a shelf for a day or so before opening.

The BBC have published an article today on exactly your worries:

Coronavirus: How can I shop or get deliveries and takeaways safely? By Victoria Gill Science correspondent, BBC News 27 March 2020

Bugger. Looking after an active 90 plus year old and used up all my dettol disinfectant spray which actually has that it kills coronaviruses on the back (I know they are not referring to SARS COV 2).

If I find any which says it kills flu virus will that do the same job or don't we know yet?

There's a call out for the development of a rapid ambulance cleaning technology - apparently at the moment it takes at least 45 mins to disinfect an ambulance after transporting a (potential) COVID sufferer and they want to reduce that.

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:59 pm

Bugger. Looking after an active 90 plus year old and used up all my dettol disinfectant spray which actually has that it kills coronaviruses on the back (I know they are not referring to SARS COV 2).

If I find any which says it kills flu virus will that do the same job or don't we know yet?

The government guidance is here: GOV.UK: COVID-19: cleaning of non-healthcare settings

There are links to related content that might be relevant for you.

It's not hugely detailed, but says 'regular household disinfectant' does the job. I have not seen any information that says that SARS-CoV-2 is more resistant than other coronaviruses to detergents, bleaches, or alcohol-based disinfectants, but I'm willing to be educated on the matter if I have not been looking in the right places.

Pucksoppet wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:23 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:59 pm

Bugger. Looking after an active 90 plus year old and used up all my dettol disinfectant spray which actually has that it kills coronaviruses on the back (I know they are not referring to SARS COV 2).

If I find any which says it kills flu virus will that do the same job or don't we know yet?

The government guidance is here: GOV.UK: COVID-19: cleaning of non-healthcare settings

There are links to related content that might be relevant for you.

It's not hugely detailed, but says 'regular household disinfectant' does the job. I have not seen any information that says that SARS-CoV-2 is more resistant than other coronaviruses to detergents, bleaches, or alcohol-based disinfectants, but I'm willing to be educated on the matter if I have not been looking in the right places.

Cheers. I’m trying to perfect my airlock procedure for when I come into the house so I don’t kill her.

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:38 pm

Pucksoppet wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:23 pm

Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:59 pm

Bugger. Looking after an active 90 plus year old and used up all my dettol disinfectant spray which actually has that it kills coronaviruses on the back (I know they are not referring to SARS COV 2).

If I find any which says it kills flu virus will that do the same job or don't we know yet?

The government guidance is here: GOV.UK: COVID-19: cleaning of non-healthcare settings

There are links to related content that might be relevant for you.

It's not hugely detailed, but says 'regular household disinfectant' does the job. I have not seen any information that says that SARS-CoV-2 is more resistant than other coronaviruses to detergents, bleaches, or alcohol-based disinfectants, but I'm willing to be educated on the matter if I have not been looking in the right places.

Cheers. I’m trying to perfect my airlock procedure for when I come into the house so I don’t kill her.

European Guidance here: European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control

Specifically:

ECDC 18 Feb 2020 Interim guidance for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare facilities exposed to SARS-CoV-2

ECDC 26 Mar 2020 Disinfection of environments in healthcare and non-healthcare settings potentially contaminated with SARS-CoV-2

My reading (which could be in error) is that standard household detergent/soap and water works well, as does (sodium hypochlorite-based) bleach diluted down to a specified concentration. Other virucidal products probably work, but are not being specifically recommended.

This article might allay some fears:

Science Alert: Do You Really Have to Disinfect All Groceries Now? An Expert Explains DONALD SCHAFFNER, METAFACT 31 MARCH 2020

It has links to further information.
https://metafact.io/factchecks/1517-is- ... ignificant
https://metafact.io/factcheck_answers/2711 (Is it safe to wash fruit & vegetables with soap?)

Note that it is the opinion of one expert in Food Safety, but he has credible qualifications, as shown on his biography and answers to previous questions, here:

https://metafact.io/users/donald-schaffner

There is a Donald Schaffner shown as a staff member on the Rutgers web-site

https://foodsci.rutgers.edu/schaffner/

But there is no guarantee that the 'Donald Schaffner' writing on metafact.io is the same person. For all we know, it could be a dog. link to classic New Yorker cartoon

Pucksoppet wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:39 am

This article might allay some fears:

Science Alert: Do You Really Have to Disinfect All Groceries Now? An Expert Explains DONALD SCHAFFNER, METAFACT 31 MARCH 2020

Thanks. Have to admit that for one first supermarket delivery I did wash a punnet of grapes (because the package has breathing holes in the film), including squirting washing up liquid over them (but then rinsing repeatedly, for a long time, in water). Fortunately Ii decided against this with a pineapple.

Ah, I knew we had a thread about this.

Realised after a couple of weeks that all the washing our hands when we come in from outside needs to be accompanied by cleaning the tap you touch to turn the water on too. We have metal & plastic taps depending on which sink, and we've been assuming that slathering said tap in hot soapy water for the 20 sec hand-washing time and then rinsing it off with more hot water would be sufficient.

It probably is from a practical point of view, given it's unlikely we're actually contaminated. But what cleaning products & for how long is actually enough?

The UK cleaning advice linked above says wash with hot saopy water, then disinfect with normal household products - no times given. The EU advice (this one from above) is more informative and talks about different disinfectants and times.

raven wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:51 pm

The EU advice (this one from above) is more informative and talks about different disinfectants and times.

Whilst wearing proper PPE.

The following PPE items are suggested for usewhen cleaning facilities likely to be contaminated by SARS-CoV-2:Filtering face pieces (FFP) respirators class 2 or 3 (FFP2 or FFP3)Goggles or face shieldDisposable long-sleeved water-resistant gownDisposable gloves.

Dispose of properly or decontamianted using the available products (e.g. 0.1% sodium hypochlorite or 70% ethanol).

Whilst wearing proper PPE.

Because they're talking about places likely to be contaminated, somewhere where someone with symptoms has been. Not much point in wearing PPE for cleaning a tap only I & MrRaven use, I think.

raven wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:00 am

Whilst wearing proper PPE.

Because they're talking about places likely to be contaminated, somewhere where someone with symptoms has been. Not much point in wearing PPE for cleaning a tap only I & MrRaven use, I think.

You're probably right. I find it hard to figure out the proper level of precaution to take.

Went for a shop in our local town, San Luis de Sabanillas. Got stopped by Guardia Civil, that was fine, all my papers were in order. All the streets were being sprayed with a bleach solution. I mean all. Prolly preparing for first stage of unlockdown here this weekend.
Now we'll see how compliant people are. It's been good so far, but I gotta say, I'm worried about an influx of 'outsiders'. We've been relatively untouched here. Now, we're getting our gates bleached.

Opti wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:26 pm

Went for a shop in our local town, San Luis de Sabanillas. Got stopped by Guardia Civil, that was fine, all my papers were in order. All the streets were being sprayed with a bleach solution. I mean all. Prolly preparing for first stage of unlockdown here this weekend.
Now we'll see how compliant people are. It's been good so far, but I gotta say, I'm worried about an influx of 'outsiders'. We've been relatively untouched here. Now, we're getting our gates bleached.

Can't remember whether this was posted here yesterday ...

Spanish official apologises for spraying beach with bleach

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:30 pm

Opti wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:26 pm

Went for a shop in our local town, San Luis de Sabanillas. Got stopped by Guardia Civil, that was fine, all my papers were in order. All the streets were being sprayed with a bleach solution. I mean all. Prolly preparing for first stage of unlockdown here this weekend.
Now we'll see how compliant people are. It's been good so far, but I gotta say, I'm worried about an influx of 'outsiders'. We've been relatively untouched here. Now, we're getting our gates bleached.

Can't remember whether this was posted here yesterday ...

Spanish official apologises for spraying beach with bleach

That's the most f.cking stupid thing I ever heard, but spraying streets has to be horrific for the environment too, shirley? And what's the point --- is there evidence that the virus is lying around in huge quantities on pavements and people are licking their floors when they get home?

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:58 pm

Gfamily wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:30 pm

Opti wrote: ↑

Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:26 pm

Went for a shop in our local town, San Luis de Sabanillas. Got stopped by Guardia Civil, that was fine, all my papers were in order. All the streets were being sprayed with a bleach solution. I mean all. Prolly preparing for first stage of unlockdown here this weekend.
Now we'll see how compliant people are. It's been good so far, but I gotta say, I'm worried about an influx of 'outsiders'. We've been relatively untouched here. Now, we're getting our gates bleached.

Can't remember whether this was posted here yesterday ...

Spanish official apologises for spraying beach with bleach

That's the most f.cking stupid thing I ever heard, but spraying streets has to be horrific for the environment too, shirley? And what's the point --- is there evidence that the virus is lying around in huge quantities on pavements and people are licking their floors when they get home?

There does seem to be an inability to realise we aren't the only living species on this planet.