The Death Of Fossil Fuels

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IvanV
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by IvanV » Wed Feb 26, 2025 6:51 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:45 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:30 pm
On one point, I’m not sure if BEV sales are struggling that much. Sales are up of 40% year on year for January 2025, while the over all car market shrunk.
Sales of Swasti-cars are suffering heavily, but I don't know if those are being replaced by other BEV purchases.
Guardian article from last October on difficulties manufacturers are having meeting targets for EV sales

The point is that the government has set minimum requirements for EV sales, and fines the car companies in proportion to the deficit if they don't achieve them. These requirements are tradable between manufacturers, so they can sort it out collectively. But the problem is that collectively they are having difficulty meeting these rapidly rising targets. Even though there are plenty of EVs to sell, as they are selling even worse in Germany. Though of course there are tariffs on Chinese EV sales, as Europe thinks China is dumping them.

20% of new cars sold in the UK were EVs at the time of that article 5 months ago. And of course, that's what it has to be, given the fines if it isn't. Probably they are taking some lower margins on EVs, or even losses, and higher margins on ICEs, to make that happen. That's what's upsetting them. The prospect of doing that gets harder and harder as EV sale goes up. And the target for 2025 is 28%, and rapidly increasing to 80% by 2030. Something rather extraordinary has to happen in the next two or three of years if that 80% is to be reached, and I expect the manufacturers are probably sh.tting themselves over it.

Because if we are to go from 3% to 75% of cars on the roads being EVs by 2040, then with the residual life in ICE cars, we see that rather few ICE cars can be sold between now and 2040. The average life of cars has risen to around 15-16 years recently, and that will mostly be ICE cars living longer.

The current target to stop fossil fuel cars being sold is 2035. And indeed the present government has talked about reinstating the 2030 date. And if you are selling 80% by 2030, then getting over the final hurdle is probably fairly easy.

Meanwhile the government might be taking what the car manufacturers said last year seriously. At least the specialist press is reporting that the government is considering car loan guarantees to try and help sales, but I don't know to what extent that is hopeful reporting, clearly the govt is not considering serious incentives. If true, that will enable car financiers to offer lower interest rates with default risk reduced. But it's not making it much cheaper.

Clearly there is a virtuous circle that comes about when sufficient EVs are on the roads, but it is hard getting there.

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bjn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Wed Feb 26, 2025 7:42 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:45 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:30 pm
On one point, I’m not sure if BEV sales are struggling that much. Sales are up of 40% year on year for January 2025, while the over all car market shrunk.
Sales of Swasti-cars are suffering heavily, but I don't know if those are being replaced by other BEV purchases.
Year on year for January BEV sales are up by 35% or 41% in the UK (figures from two different sources below), while Tesla sales are down 12%. So yes, in the UK they are. Similar for over the channel.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2025/02/te ... d-germany/

https://www.smmt.co.uk/ev-share-rises-d ... n-targets/

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Grumble
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu Feb 27, 2025 6:17 am

IvanV wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2025 6:51 pm
dyqik wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:45 pm
bjn wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2025 5:30 pm
On one point, I’m not sure if BEV sales are struggling that much. Sales are up of 40% year on year for January 2025, while the over all car market shrunk.
Sales of Swasti-cars are suffering heavily, but I don't know if those are being replaced by other BEV purchases.
Guardian article from last October on difficulties manufacturers are having meeting targets for EV sales

The point is that the government has set minimum requirements for EV sales, and fines the car companies in proportion to the deficit if they don't achieve them. These requirements are tradable between manufacturers, so they can sort it out collectively. But the problem is that collectively they are having difficulty meeting these rapidly rising targets. Even though there are plenty of EVs to sell, as they are selling even worse in Germany. Though of course there are tariffs on Chinese EV sales, as Europe thinks China is dumping them.

20% of new cars sold in the UK were EVs at the time of that article 5 months ago. And of course, that's what it has to be, given the fines if it isn't. Probably they are taking some lower margins on EVs, or even losses, and higher margins on ICEs, to make that happen. That's what's upsetting them. The prospect of doing that gets harder and harder as EV sale goes up. And the target for 2025 is 28%, and rapidly increasing to 80% by 2030. Something rather extraordinary has to happen in the next two or three of years if that 80% is to be reached, and I expect the manufacturers are probably sh.tting themselves over it.

Because if we are to go from 3% to 75% of cars on the roads being EVs by 2040, then with the residual life in ICE cars, we see that rather few ICE cars can be sold between now and 2040. The average life of cars has risen to around 15-16 years recently, and that will mostly be ICE cars living longer.

The current target to stop fossil fuel cars being sold is 2035. And indeed the present government has talked about reinstating the 2030 date. And if you are selling 80% by 2030, then getting over the final hurdle is probably fairly easy.

Meanwhile the government might be taking what the car manufacturers said last year seriously. At least the specialist press is reporting that the government is considering car loan guarantees to try and help sales, but I don't know to what extent that is hopeful reporting, clearly the govt is not considering serious incentives. If true, that will enable car financiers to offer lower interest rates with default risk reduced. But it's not making it much cheaper.

Clearly there is a virtuous circle that comes about when sufficient EVs are on the roads, but it is hard getting there.
The manufacturers are not struggling all that much, they just like to sell as much of their old stock as they can. That round of bleating came just before a big new wave of more affordable evs which are now coming through.
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bjn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu Feb 27, 2025 7:04 am

As I understand it, the EU has fleet efficiency targets that incorporate BEV sales, with large penalties if you missed them. Those targets were tightened at the start of the year. Up to last year all the manufacturers had met the relevant quotas and wanted to move as many BEV sales forward into this year to be sure they could meet the new targets, so they had kept prices high and the number of new cheaper models low. There are a plethora of new cheaper models being released this year as a result.

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Grumble
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu Feb 27, 2025 1:24 pm

bjn wrote:
Thu Feb 27, 2025 7:04 am
As I understand it, the EU has fleet efficiency targets that incorporate BEV sales, with large penalties if you missed them. Those targets were tightened at the start of the year. Up to last year all the manufacturers had met the relevant quotas and wanted to move as many BEV sales forward into this year to be sure they could meet the new targets, so they had kept prices high and the number of new cheaper models low. There are a plethora of new cheaper models being released this year as a result.
Yeah, they like to f.ck about with their sales then claim they’re all helpless.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:21 am

Carbon Brief report for UK 2024

UK Coal consumption lowest since the Great Fire of London
CO2 release from UK lowest for over 150 years*.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-uk ... ince-1666/

Embedded Carbon (including that emitted elsewhere on UK imports) also falling

* it's unclear whether CO2 released by Drax is counted**

** it should be, as it claims to be CO2 released within UK borders

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:53 am

The Energy Transition Show podcast has just finished a 3 episode series on the energy transition in the UK. The last one has a long interview with the chief engineer at the National Energy System Operator. Basically, we are acing it when it comes to decarbonising electricity generation. The expectation is that by 2030 gas generation will be down to around 5%, from around 30% today. Well worth a listen.

https://xenetwork.org/ets/

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:41 pm

bjn wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:53 am
The Energy Transition Show podcast has just finished a 3 episode series on the energy transition in the UK. The last one has a long interview with the chief engineer at the National Energy System Operator. Basically, we are acing it when it comes to decarbonising electricity generation. The expectation is that by 2030 gas generation will be down to around 5%, from around 30% today. Well worth a listen.

https://xenetwork.org/ets/
I’ll definitely try to listen to that. Do they discuss the other side of the problem, electrifying everything to take advantage of our cleaner generation?
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:45 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 12:41 pm
bjn wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:53 am
The Energy Transition Show podcast has just finished a 3 episode series on the energy transition in the UK. The last one has a long interview with the chief engineer at the National Energy System Operator. Basically, we are acing it when it comes to decarbonising electricity generation. The expectation is that by 2030 gas generation will be down to around 5%, from around 30% today. Well worth a listen.

https://xenetwork.org/ets/
I’ll definitely try to listen to that. Do they discuss the other side of the problem, electrifying everything to take advantage of our cleaner generation?
They talk about space heating and transportation and the need to increase electrification of both and the impact that will have on demand, though they don't drill into it very deeply.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:25 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:21 am
Carbon Brief report for UK 2024

UK Coal consumption lowest since the Great Fire of London
CO2 release from UK lowest for over 150 years*.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-uk ... ince-1666/

Embedded Carbon (including that emitted elsewhere on UK imports) also falling

* it's unclear whether CO2 released by Drax is counted**

** it should be, as it claims to be CO2 released within UK borders
Given the population increase, and the increase of standard of living in that time, that's extremely impressive.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:28 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:25 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:21 am
Carbon Brief report for UK 2024

UK Coal consumption lowest since the Great Fire of London
CO2 release from UK lowest for over 150 years*.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-uk ... ince-1666/

Embedded Carbon (including that emitted elsewhere on UK imports) also falling

* it's unclear whether CO2 released by Drax is counted**

** it should be, as it claims to be CO2 released within UK borders
Given the population increase, and the increase of standard of living in that time, that's extremely impressive.
In the report they say the per capita emissions have fallen from 11.3tCO2e in 1872 to 5.4tCO2e in 2024
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:29 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:28 pm
dyqik wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 1:25 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Thu Mar 13, 2025 11:21 am
Carbon Brief report for UK 2024

UK Coal consumption lowest since the Great Fire of London
CO2 release from UK lowest for over 150 years*.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-uk ... ince-1666/

Embedded Carbon (including that emitted elsewhere on UK imports) also falling

* it's unclear whether CO2 released by Drax is counted**

** it should be, as it claims to be CO2 released within UK borders
Given the population increase, and the increase of standard of living in that time, that's extremely impressive.
In the report they say the per capita emissions have fallen from 11.3tCO2e in 1872 to 5.4tCO2e in 2024
And most people now live in warm and well-lit houses, with much better ability to travel.

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bjn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu Mar 13, 2025 2:12 pm

Yep. Efficiency is one of the underreported aspects of the transition, not just LED lighting, but anything and everything that consumes energy. If done right, it can also have excellent returns on capital invested (in the form of expenses avoided).

One weird example, pumping fluids around sharp turns induces all sorts of turbulence and pressures which necessitates higher power pumps. Simply straightening corners into gentler curves reduces the power needed to run the pumps. Whether domestic central heating or big industrial pipes. I can’t remember the figure quoted, but for the UK, some absurd amount of energy is wasted in this ways. (Source was Michael Liebreich).

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