The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
Aitch
Clardic Fug
Posts: 184
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:53 am

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Aitch » Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:59 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:32 pm
The main expense involved in running a heritage railway isn't buying imported coal, it's all the other f.cking stuff. You've basically got a giant broiling pressure vessel of steam and fire, made of obsolete parts, running on possibly the most expensive bit of infrastructure attached to the earth, also made of obsolete parts, and kept going by men whose knees stopped working in the 90s. If it weren't for the fact that Network Rail keeps trying to get rid of its old shite, most of them would've gone bust years ago.

He said cynically. Nice day out though.
Do the ones that run diesels get to use pink diesel (is it still called that?) or do they have to pay full price?

Or is it a different sort of diesel?
Some people call me strange.
I prefer unconventional.
But I'm willing to compromise and accept eccentric
.

User avatar
shpalman
Dorkwood
Posts: 1382
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:53 pm
Location: One step beyond

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by shpalman » Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:33 pm

Aitch wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:59 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:32 pm
The main expense involved in running a heritage railway isn't buying imported coal, it's all the other f.cking stuff. You've basically got a giant broiling pressure vessel of steam and fire, made of obsolete parts, running on possibly the most expensive bit of infrastructure attached to the earth, also made of obsolete parts, and kept going by men whose knees stopped working in the 90s. If it weren't for the fact that Network Rail keeps trying to get rid of its old shite, most of them would've gone bust years ago.

He said cynically. Nice day out though.
Do the ones that run diesels get to use pink diesel (is it still called that?) or do they have to pay full price?

Or is it a different sort of diesel?
Which are the ones that run diesels? You mean basically all the train lines outside London apart from the East Coast Main Line? How can you tell which ones are "heritage" and which ones are just sh.t old lines running knackered old trains?
molto tricky

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:06 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 5:33 pm
Aitch wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:59 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:32 pm
The main expense involved in running a heritage railway isn't buying imported coal, it's all the other f.cking stuff. You've basically got a giant broiling pressure vessel of steam and fire, made of obsolete parts, running on possibly the most expensive bit of infrastructure attached to the earth, also made of obsolete parts, and kept going by men whose knees stopped working in the 90s. If it weren't for the fact that Network Rail keeps trying to get rid of its old shite, most of them would've gone bust years ago.

He said cynically. Nice day out though.
Do the ones that run diesels get to use pink diesel (is it still called that?) or do they have to pay full price?

Or is it a different sort of diesel?
Which are the ones that run diesels? You mean basically all the train lines outside London apart from the East Coast Main Line? How can you tell which ones are "heritage" and which ones are just sh.t old lines running knackered old trains?
That's easy. The heritage lines are the ones that don't run trains much later than scheduled and don't have massive fare hikes each year. ;)

User avatar
Grumble
Catbabel
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:26 pm

The Thomas the Tank Engine experiences around the place normally have a diesel doing the actual work.
I could squeeze my lemon till my blues went away, if I had possession over pancake day

User avatar
Grumble
Catbabel
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 pm

The coal free run came to an end on 16 June, sadly.
7E264A5F-CC7B-48A8-B4C4-AAC37760EA19.jpeg
7E264A5F-CC7B-48A8-B4C4-AAC37760EA19.jpeg (170.99 KiB) Viewed 525 times
I could squeeze my lemon till my blues went away, if I had possession over pancake day

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:45 pm

Grumble wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:40 pm
The coal free run came to an end on 16 June, sadly. 7E264A5F-CC7B-48A8-B4C4-AAC37760EA19.jpeg
Is that not just turning them on to see if they still work?

User avatar
Sciolus
Clardic Fug
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Sciolus » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:57 pm

Yes:
"Essential maintenance has been carried out on one of our coal generating units as is usual during the spring and summer months when demand is lower, and the coal units are not required to run," a spokesperson said.

"Following the completion of this work we need to make sure the unit is performing well, ready for the winter when demand for power increases and the coal units are expected to run. As a result, tests are being carried out now which require the unit to generate power."
In other news, fracking is "over":
Business, energy and clean growth minister Kwasi Kwarteng has indicated that there is no future for the UK’s shale gas industry.

Speaking on the BBC’s North West Tonight yesterday, he emphasised that future energy needs would be met by renewables and energy storage, such as the ‘Cryobattery’ system being constructed in Manchester with financial assistance from the government.

“We hear a lot about the pressures of Covid and the green recovery. This is an example of the green recovery in action … We need battery technology to keep the energy generated by renewables,” he said.

Asked by host Roger Johnson if the development indicated a shift from the government away from fossil fuels towards more renewables, Kwarteng replied that the shift is already happening.

Probed further on shale gas in the north-west of England, which is home to Cuadrilla, he replied: “We had a moratorium on fracking last year and frankly the debate’s moved on. It’s not something that we’re looking to do. We’ve always said that we’d be evidence-backed so if there was a time the science, evidence changed our minds we would be open to that but, for now, fracking is over.”

User avatar
Martin_B
Snowbonk
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:20 pm
Location: Perth, WA

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:12 am

Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:57 pm
Yes:
"Essential maintenance has been carried out on one of our coal generating units as is usual during the spring and summer months when demand is lower, and the coal units are not required to run," a spokesperson said.

"Following the completion of this work we need to make sure the unit is performing well, ready for the winter when demand for power increases and the coal units are expected to run. As a result, tests are being carried out now which require the unit to generate power."
In other news, fracking is "over":
Business, energy and clean growth minister Kwasi Kwarteng has indicated that there is no future for the UK’s shale gas industry.

Speaking on the BBC’s North West Tonight yesterday, he emphasised that future energy needs would be met by renewables and energy storage, such as the ‘Cryobattery’ system being constructed in Manchester with financial assistance from the government.

“We hear a lot about the pressures of Covid and the green recovery. This is an example of the green recovery in action … We need battery technology to keep the energy generated by renewables,” he said.

Asked by host Roger Johnson if the development indicated a shift from the government away from fossil fuels towards more renewables, Kwarteng replied that the shift is already happening.

Probed further on shale gas in the north-west of England, which is home to Cuadrilla, he replied: “We had a moratorium on fracking last year and frankly the debate’s moved on. It’s not something that we’re looking to do. We’ve always said that we’d be evidence-backed so if there was a time the science, evidence changed our minds we would be open to that but, for now, fracking is over.”
Call me a cynic (I mean, it's my industry!) but fracking being over for this government means that when the economics are right they'll start looking at "Alternative Gas Requiring Injection of Liquids to Open Formation", or AGRILOFing, which is completely different to fracking in every way!
"Don't tell me that the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon"

bmforre
Fuzzable
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: Trondheim

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bmforre » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:56 am

Martin_B wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:12 am
Call me a cynic (I mean, it's my industry!) but fracking being over for this government means that when the economics are right they'll start looking at "Alternative Gas Requiring Injection of Liquids to Open Formation", or AGRILOFing, which is completely different to fracking in every way!
We must always be Open to Alternatives such as AGRILOF.
Avoid Closed Mind attitudes.

Remember with Brexit it's high and merry time to throw off the chains of Ye Old Necessities.

User avatar
Grumble
Catbabel
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:46 pm

Your chance to voice your opinion on the proposed phasing out of ICE engines in cars and vans.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... s-and-vans
I could squeeze my lemon till my blues went away, if I had possession over pancake day

User avatar
Martin Y
Dorkwood
Posts: 1026
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin Y » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:35 pm

Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:46 pm
Your chance to voice your opinion on the proposed phasing out of ICE engines in cars and vans.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... s-and-vans
I suspect the single most-repeated comment will be "You lot told us all to buy diesels!". I'm torn between thinking when electric cars are clearly good enough, they'll sell themselves and thinking 2040 isn't actually all that far away, and the last time we bought a new family car (over a dozen years ago) we could have bought a Prius but didn't really like it on a test drive. Who would have thought all this time later there still wouldn't be a hybrid or electric car we just knew was ideal for us? I wonder if things will actually change significantly in another dozen years. That brings us awfully close to 2035...

User avatar
bjn
Snowbonk
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:56 pm

In a similar vein California is outlawing diesel trucks from 2045. The phasing our starts in 2024, but with a rapid ramp up in the proportion of vehicles that need to be ZEV after that. Where California starts, most other states follow, and with that big a market demanding ZEVs, expect the price to drop some as production ramps up.

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:03 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:35 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:46 pm
Your chance to voice your opinion on the proposed phasing out of ICE engines in cars and vans.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... s-and-vans
I suspect the single most-repeated comment will be "You lot told us all to buy diesels!". I'm torn between thinking when electric cars are clearly good enough, they'll sell themselves and thinking 2040 isn't actually all that far away, and the last time we bought a new family car (over a dozen years ago) we could have bought a Prius but didn't really like it on a test drive. Who would have thought all this time later there still wouldn't be a hybrid or electric car we just knew was ideal for us? I wonder if things will actually change significantly in another dozen years. That brings us awfully close to 2035...
I'm in the situation where there isn't a ICE car that's ideal for me, or an EV that's ideal for me.

I want an AWD estate long enough to carry 8ft lumber which isn't over £40k. No such thing on the US market right now, AFAICT, apart from possibly a Buick, and I'm not going anywhere near a US domestic car.

User avatar
Grumble
Catbabel
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:11 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:35 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:46 pm
Your chance to voice your opinion on the proposed phasing out of ICE engines in cars and vans.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultat ... s-and-vans
I suspect the single most-repeated comment will be "You lot told us all to buy diesels!". I'm torn between thinking when electric cars are clearly good enough, they'll sell themselves and thinking 2040 isn't actually all that far away, and the last time we bought a new family car (over a dozen years ago) we could have bought a Prius but didn't really like it on a test drive. Who would have thought all this time later there still wouldn't be a hybrid or electric car we just knew was ideal for us? I wonder if things will actually change significantly in another dozen years. That brings us awfully close to 2035...
I think electric cars are starting to sell themselves. There isn’t an affordable direct replacement for my current car yet, but maybe I should think about what I need. I’m 95% sure my next car is electric and I want to sell my diesel while it still has some value.
I could squeeze my lemon till my blues went away, if I had possession over pancake day

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:02 am

Also, as governments start to pass legislation banning ICEs the guaranteed, more varied market will persuade companies to invest more in developing a wider variety of EVs. Twenty years lead-in time is really quite a lot.
I've been spending my days stroking my beard

User avatar
bjn
Snowbonk
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:09 pm

Just saw this report from BP, in 2019 renewables generated more electricity than coal for the first time.
Renewables posted record growth in 2019 (3.2 exajoules, EJ, 12.2%) and though they met the largest share of rising demand, a similar portion was from fossil fuels. Large increases for oil (1.6EJ, 0.8%) and gas (2.6EJ, 2.0%) offset falling coal use (-0.9EJ, -0.6%).
Renewables accounting for 41% of new generation added.

FlammableFlower
Snowbonk
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by FlammableFlower » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:20 pm

Thought's from those with more understanding of this?:

Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts

User avatar
jaap
Clardic Fug
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:05 pm
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by jaap » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:53 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:20 pm
Thought's from those with more understanding of this?:

Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts
Flywheel energy storage is a thing. Apparently it can be used to stabilise power grids, so it is not as revolutionary as the article makes out, except maybe the scale they want.

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:49 pm

jaap wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:53 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:20 pm
Thought's from those with more understanding of this?:

Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts
Flywheel energy storage is a thing. Apparently it can be used to stabilise power grids, so it is not as revolutionary as the article makes out, except maybe the scale they want.
Yeah, we've been supposed to be having one installed on top of the volcano to deal with HEL(l)Co's power fluctuations for the past several years. Enough storage to keep 8 100kW antenna systems and about 50kW of backend running for 15 minutes or so, after which the generators would take over - most outages are less than a minute and more in the "glitch" category.

User avatar
Grumble
Catbabel
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:58 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:20 pm
Thought's from those with more understanding of this?:

Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts
The article is deplorably lacking in detail, however the essentials of the article including the stability afforded by traditional power stations having big spinning lumps of metal seem correct. It’s kind of an obvious solution really - replace one big spinning metal thing with another. I wish they had a bit more info though.
I could squeeze my lemon till my blues went away, if I had possession over pancake day

FlammableFlower
Snowbonk
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by FlammableFlower » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:11 pm

My grasp of physics and engineering is such that flywheels appear to inhabit "magic machine" territory. The article was so, so vague - it sounded like something I could have written... which was why I thought I'd ask about it.

User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1069
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by jimbob » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:43 pm

jaap wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:53 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:20 pm
Thought's from those with more understanding of this?:

Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts
Flywheel energy storage is a thing. Apparently it can be used to stabilise power grids, so it is not as revolutionary as the article makes out, except maybe the scale they want.
Our factory uses one for its uninteruptable power supply. It's in a building about 20m by 20m by 6m and apparently has enough kinetic energy for about half an hour. We now have a combined heat and power plant there. We have been going off grid at times of peak demand.

I was talking to someone from National Grid at a friend's 40th and apparently, when we got the flywheel, the whole town's voltage stabilised - and there's a large hospital nearby too. Our industry is energy intensive, with furnaces running up to 1100 degrees amongst other things.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 1970
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:07 pm

jimbob wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:43 pm
jaap wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:53 pm
FlammableFlower wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:20 pm
Thought's from those with more understanding of this?:

Giant flywheel project in Scotland could prevent UK blackouts
Flywheel energy storage is a thing. Apparently it can be used to stabilise power grids, so it is not as revolutionary as the article makes out, except maybe the scale they want.
Our factory uses one for its uninteruptable power supply. It's in a building about 20m by 20m by 6m and apparently has enough kinetic energy for about half an hour. We now have a combined heat and power plant there. We have been going off grid at times of peak demand.

I was talking to someone from National Grid at a friend's 40th and apparently, when we got the flywheel, the whole town's voltage stabilised - and there's a large hospital nearby too. Our industry is energy intensive, with furnaces running up to 1100 degrees amongst other things.
JET uses flywheels as well, to allow it to pull the 2600 MJ (1.3 GW for 20 seconds) required to fire a pulse. It then takes 9 minutes to recharge. The two flywheels are 9m diameter, 775 ton rotors spinning at 225 RPM, and supply 400 MW each during the pulse (in addition to the 575 MW grid connection).

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:54 pm

Two oil pipelines suspended in the last week.

Dakota Access, which has been protested by indigenous people as well as environmentalists due to its path through sacred sites and burial grounds, has been blocked pending an environmental review (which it will obviously fail). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53317852

Keystone has also been blocked by the Supreme Court. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... ne-project

So, despite gutting the EPA and stuffing it with climate-denying fossil lobbyists and stacking the courts, the Trump administration is finding that building pipelines for new tar sands projects seems to be just a bit too stupid.

Both are at least delayed til next year when Biden will axe them.
I've been spending my days stroking my beard

User avatar
Grumble
Catbabel
Posts: 734
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:38 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:54 pm
Two oil pipelines suspended in the last week.

Dakota Access, which has been protested by indigenous people as well as environmentalists due to its path through sacred sites and burial grounds, has been blocked pending an environmental review (which it will obviously fail). https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53317852

Keystone has also been blocked by the Supreme Court. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... ne-project

So, despite gutting the EPA and stuffing it with climate-denying fossil lobbyists and stacking the courts, the Trump administration is finding that building pipelines for new tar sands projects seems to be just a bit too stupid.

Both are at least delayed til next year when Biden will axe them.
Don’t count your chickens
I could squeeze my lemon till my blues went away, if I had possession over pancake day

Post Reply