The Death Of Fossil Fuels

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Gfamily
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Thu May 27, 2021 2:19 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Is the rest of the natural gas useful for anything other than combusting?

Because obviously people are going to stop doing that soon, and I expect the economics of He extraction change significantly if you then have 99%+ of a flammable waste product to dispose of.
Decomposition into hydrogen and 'sequestable' carbon might be an option.
Hydrogen can be used in fuel cells so has a range of use cases.
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Grumble
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu May 27, 2021 2:33 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:19 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Is the rest of the natural gas useful for anything other than combusting?

Because obviously people are going to stop doing that soon, and I expect the economics of He extraction change significantly if you then have 99%+ of a flammable waste product to dispose of.
Decomposition into hydrogen and 'sequestable' carbon might be an option.
Hydrogen can be used in fuel cells so has a range of use cases.
That’s the way 99% of hydrogen is made now, there’s a drive to change it to be made by electrolysis with excess renewable energy but that’s pie in the sky until we have regular excess renewable power.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 27, 2021 2:48 pm

At least places like Qatar and Algeria tend to be pretty sunny. Massive solar installations on site could work out reasonably well - and of course it's better for producer states if as much processing as possible is done locally. Probably a way off in terms of its being economic though.

Thanks for the info!
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IvanV
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by IvanV » Thu May 27, 2021 2:58 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:33 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:19 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Is the rest of the natural gas useful for anything other than combusting?

Because obviously people are going to stop doing that soon, and I expect the economics of He extraction change significantly if you then have 99%+ of a flammable waste product to dispose of.
Decomposition into hydrogen and 'sequestable' carbon might be an option.
Hydrogen can be used in fuel cells so has a range of use cases.
That’s the way 99% of hydrogen is made now, there’s a drive to change it to be made by electrolysis with excess renewable energy but that’s pie in the sky until we have regular excess renewable power.
Making hydrogen from natural gas, and letting the CO2 escape, is "grey hydrogen". Using hydrogen you have made this way for energy results in more CO2 output than using natural gas directly, because there is an efficiency loss in the extra step involved.

Making hydrogen from natural gas, and capturing and sequestering the CO2, is "blue hydrogen". It barely exists, if at all. The big question for actual blue hydrogen is how much of the CO2 will you catch, what will it cost, and how much energy will it use to do it. People talk as if you might catch all of it, but that's not demonstrated at practical cost. Some industrial-scale demonstration carbon capture on other industrial processes has captured rather less than half of it. At that capture rate, blue hydrogen offers only a small CO2 gain on using natural gas directly, for a lot of money. It's mainly spoken of as a transition technology, to get H2 infrastructure up and running for future "Green hydrogen", made by electrolysis by low carbon electricity. Which, as Grumble says, is not without its challenges.

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jimbob
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by jimbob » Thu May 27, 2021 3:18 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Is the rest of the natural gas useful for anything other than combusting?

Because obviously people are going to stop doing that soon, and I expect the economics of He extraction change significantly if you then have 99%+ of a flammable waste product to dispose of.
It is a bit of an obvious question. And whatever happens, it will change the economics.

My immediate thought is that you can use it as a chemical feedstock. For example.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... ilization.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

IvanV
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by IvanV » Thu May 27, 2021 3:50 pm

jimbob wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 3:18 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Is the rest of the natural gas useful for anything other than combusting?

Because obviously people are going to stop doing that soon, and I expect the economics of He extraction change significantly if you then have 99%+ of a flammable waste product to dispose of.
It is a bit of an obvious question. And whatever happens, it will change the economics.

My immediate thought is that you can use it as a chemical feedstock. For example.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... ilization.
That's why you often today see the abbreviation CCUS, carbon capture and use or storage. If you can sell some for people to use, so that they sequester it, that's a lot cheaper than pumping it down a hole, even if it doesn't cover your CC costs. In fact you'd be willing to pay them to take it away if it was cheaper than pumping it down a hole. But you do want it sequestered, if that is your job.

One potential usage of captured CO2 sometimes cited is to make "synth fuel", ie synthetic fuel for combustion whose carbon content comes from captured carbon. Sometimes it is said we might use synth fuel for applications that are difficult to use novel fuels, like aviation. But then someone emits the CO2 when they use the fuel. So synth fuel isn't necessarily zero carbon depending how you got the carbon in the first place. If you get the carbon by direct air capture, then arguably it is zero carbon. But what's cheaper - putting the CO2 from direct air capture in synth fuel, which is costly and energy intensive to make, or burning fossil fuel and sequestering an equivalent quantity of CO2 which you capture by whatever means?

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bjn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu May 27, 2021 4:04 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:33 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:19 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Is the rest of the natural gas useful for anything other than combusting?

Because obviously people are going to stop doing that soon, and I expect the economics of He extraction change significantly if you then have 99%+ of a flammable waste product to dispose of.
Decomposition into hydrogen and 'sequestable' carbon might be an option.
Hydrogen can be used in fuel cells so has a range of use cases.
That’s the way 99% of hydrogen is made now, there’s a drive to change it to be made by electrolysis with excess renewable energy but that’s pie in the sky until we have regular excess renewable power.
As I understand it, the capital cost of electrolysers is stupidly high and constitutes a significant fraction of the cost of the cracked H2. Running them intermittently will only drive up the cost of the H2. Even if you had free electricity, you have to cover the cost of the kit with less H2. Also, the water crackers that can be stopped and started cost even more than the ones you run continuously.

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Martin_B
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Fri May 28, 2021 2:07 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 1:57 pm
Is the rest of the natural gas useful for anything other than combusting?

Because obviously people are going to stop doing that soon, and I expect the economics of He extraction change significantly if you then have 99%+ of a flammable waste product to dispose of.
You can use hydrocarbons as chemical feedstocks, especially for plastics (ethane converted to ethene, which produced hydrogen as a by-product, and then ethene into polythene) and heavier hydrocarbons as lubrication oils. IIRC about 95% of all hydrocarbons extracted are burnt, so 5% are used for other things; but I suspect that the figure would be worse for natural gas and slightly better for oil, even though oil requires more processing to get the useful compounds.
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Bird on a Fire
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:46 am

Keystone XL has finally been cancelled:
Keystone XL, which was proposed in 2008 to bring oil from Canada’s Western tar sands to U.S. refiners, was halted by owner TC Energy Corp after U.S. President Joe Biden this year revoked a key permit needed for a U.S. stretch of the 1,200-mile project.

Opponents of the line fought its construction for years, saying it was unnecessary and would hamper the U.S. transition to cleaner fuels. Its demise comes as other North American oil pipelines, including Dakota Access and Enbridge Line 3, face continued opposition from environmental groups.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tc-e ... SKCN2DL2KB
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bjn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:38 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:46 am
Keystone XL has finally been cancelled:
Keystone XL, which was proposed in 2008 to bring oil from Canada’s Western tar sands to U.S. refiners, was halted by owner TC Energy Corp after U.S. President Joe Biden this year revoked a key permit needed for a U.S. stretch of the 1,200-mile project.

Opponents of the line fought its construction for years, saying it was unnecessary and would hamper the U.S. transition to cleaner fuels. Its demise comes as other North American oil pipelines, including Dakota Access and Enbridge Line 3, face continued opposition from environmental groups.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tc-e ... SKCN2DL2KB
Sweet.

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