The Death Of Fossil Fuels

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bjn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:22 am

lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:00 am
Yet more disruption to traffic. Incredibly unpopular.
Completely unacceptable disruption to hard-working people's lives here. If nature wants people to care more about it, this is totally the wrong way of going about things. I even understand there are *much* more disruptive actions planned. Disgusting!
https://twitter.com/jamzbrux/status/1437793811422498824
Shock horror! Someone is pissed off on twitter! Is the pissing off outweighed by the number of people recruited to the idea that action needs to be taken? I dunno, neither do you, but the pissing off may be worth it overall.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:55 am

bjn wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:22 am
lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:00 am
Yet more disruption to traffic. Incredibly unpopular.
Completely unacceptable disruption to hard-working people's lives here. If nature wants people to care more about it, this is totally the wrong way of going about things. I even understand there are *much* more disruptive actions planned. Disgusting!
https://twitter.com/jamzbrux/status/1437793811422498824
Shock horror! Someone is pissed off on twitter! Is the pissing off outweighed by the number of people recruited to the idea that action needs to be taken? I dunno, neither do you, but the pissing off may be worth it overall.
Think you’ve missed the point there bjn
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:05 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:55 am
bjn wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:22 am
lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:00 am
Yet more disruption to traffic. Incredibly unpopular.


https://twitter.com/jamzbrux/status/1437793811422498824
Shock horror! Someone is pissed off on twitter! Is the pissing off outweighed by the number of people recruited to the idea that action needs to be taken? I dunno, neither do you, but the pissing off may be worth it overall.
Think you’ve missed the point there bjn
You could say the "Whoosh!" was vertical rather than horizontal!
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by discovolante » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:08 am

To be fair, it is quite hard to understand what's going on with anything on the Independent.
Screenshot_20210915-100619_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20210915-100619_Samsung Internet.jpg (334.02 KiB) Viewed 320 times
Scary stuff though.
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Martin Y
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin Y » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:05 am

My satnav took me by a different route so I was blithely unaware it was directing me around an XR protest until Mrs Y texted me and asked if I'd got stuck in the jam. They did make me miss the morning Zoom though so I'm grateful for that.

Good to hear the Hydeploy experiment worked, and it raises the prospect of using renewables to make green hydrogen, perhaps principally for HGV transport, but knowing that any overproduction can just be injected into the domestic gas supply.

Though one interesting thing in the comments which I hadn't considered: "what else is needed to prevent separation of the gases whilst stagnant in the grid during periods of low/no demand/use?" I have no idea about separation but if it happens it might be an issue as I gather that the 20% limit of H2 in the blend is to prevent the hydrogen causing embrittlement of metal gas pipes.

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Grumble
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:45 am

Separation isn’t a thing that happens without equipment. Doesn’t happen by itself inside a container.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Martin Y
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin Y » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:48 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:45 am
Separation isn’t a thing that happens without equipment. Doesn’t happen by itself inside a container.
Ta.

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bjn
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:03 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:55 am
bjn wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:22 am
lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:00 am
Yet more disruption to traffic. Incredibly unpopular.


https://twitter.com/jamzbrux/status/1437793811422498824
Shock horror! Someone is pissed off on twitter! Is the pissing off outweighed by the number of people recruited to the idea that action needs to be taken? I dunno, neither do you, but the pissing off may be worth it overall.
Think you’ve missed the point there bjn
I did didn’t I. I failed to click on the link this time.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:52 pm

Looks like we may be burning Coal more than had been planned this winter.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-58570893
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:11 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:52 pm
Looks like we may be burning Coal more than had been planned this winter.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-58570893
This year has been pretty sh.t for wind power. I thought we were bound to keep increasing our wind output year on year. I didn’t realise, though maybe it’s obvious in hindsight, that you could have whole years with low wind speeds.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Millennie Al » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:29 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:11 pm
This year has been pretty sh.t for wind power. I thought we were bound to keep increasing our wind output year on year. I didn’t realise, though maybe it’s obvious in hindsight, that you could have whole years with low wind speeds.
Wind power is part of the solution to climate change. Climate change is claimed to cause more extreme weather. Do the people installing wind power actually believe this? If so, how do they decide where to install, given that the problem they're solving makes predictions from past weather unreliable?
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:48 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:29 am
Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:11 pm
This year has been pretty sh.t for wind power. I thought we were bound to keep increasing our wind output year on year. I didn’t realise, though maybe it’s obvious in hindsight, that you could have whole years with low wind speeds.
Wind power is part of the solution to climate change. Climate change is claimed to cause more extreme weather. Do the people installing wind power actually believe this? If so, how do they decide where to install, given that the problem they're solving makes predictions from past weather unreliable?
Wind turbines are usually installed in locations where wind is reliable (eg, tops of ridges, just offshore, etc). More extreme weather may change wind patterns, but they are unlikely to make the windiest places other sorts of locations (tops of ridges will always be reliably windier than flat plains, for example).
What may happen with more extreme weather patterns is that strong winds become more common, but with the latest wind turbines you have to get very strong winds to move outside of the operating envelope of the turbine. (I believe that the issue is that with very high wind speeds pushing on the blades, the turbine bearings become a weak point, so above certain wind speeds the blades have to halted. But as technology improves the bearings are becoming more robust.)
Predictions on future weather events from past weather events may become less reliable with climate change (although forecasting computers are becoming better) but predictions on future generalised weather and optimised locations of wind turbines probably won't change significantly. I.e., currently Ridge A gets more wind than Ridge B, but with climate change Ridge B may become windier than Ridge A, but that is unlikely to mean that Ridge A gets no wind at all.
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Martin Y
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin Y » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:07 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:11 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:52 pm
Looks like we may be burning Coal more than had been planned this winter.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-58570893
This year has been pretty sh.t for wind power. I thought we were bound to keep increasing our wind output year on year. I didn’t realise, though maybe it’s obvious in hindsight, that you could have whole years with low wind speeds.
They were talking about domestic energy price increases on PM the other day and mentioned how little wind there had been this year, but the main thrust of the discussion was the interviewee (can't remember, soz) telling Evan Davies that gas prices had risen a lot so gas and electric would cost more. They then spent the rest of their time repeating this idea using different forms of words, while I raged at the radio demanding to know WHY gas prices had spiked. Seems like they couldn't hear me.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:22 am

Radio 4 is sh.t. But they've no incentive to stop being sh.t because idiots like you listen to it anyway. Only yourself to blame.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:50 am

Martin Y wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:07 am
Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:11 pm
Gfamily wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:52 pm
Looks like we may be burning Coal more than had been planned this winter.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-kent-58570893
This year has been pretty sh.t for wind power. I thought we were bound to keep increasing our wind output year on year. I didn’t realise, though maybe it’s obvious in hindsight, that you could have whole years with low wind speeds.
They were talking about domestic energy price increases on PM the other day and mentioned how little wind there had been this year, but the main thrust of the discussion was the interviewee (can't remember, soz) telling Evan Davies that gas prices had risen a lot so gas and electric would cost more. They then spent the rest of their time repeating this idea using different forms of words, while I raged at the radio demanding to know WHY gas prices had spiked. Seems like they couldn't hear me.
If you are looking for an explanation, as well as the lack of wind, Russia has cut supplies of gas to the rest of Europe, and there is currently a gas shortage which has increased the price. Russia is apparently putting pressure on the EU to give a green light to the Nordstream 2 pipeline. That might work in the short run but will surely increase motivation to be independent of Russian energy supplies.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:02 pm

bjn wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:59 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:21 pm
bjn wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:38 pm
Regardless, the first thing that should be done is to insulate the hell out of the UK's housing stock.
These single-issue protesters are doing just that. Not only did their actions insulate a bunch of homes, they also made themselves remarkably popular with the general public. Win win.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... s-58543603
How many people did they alienate as opposed to recruiting? Many of the 'bl..dy protesters!' types wouldn't care anyway, so are already alienated. How many people will now know of this because of the coverage given to the protest and go, "That's a bl..dy good idea!", even if they think the protesters are somewhat tossers?

No idea. But your implied premise that they alienate more people from their cause than recruit needs more evidence.
The usual objection to blocking major roads is that it might lead to delays for emergency response vehicles. Looks like that happened on the M25: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... 5-25015653

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:52 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:02 pm
The usual objection to blocking major roads is that it might lead to delays for emergency response vehicles. Looks like that happened on the M25: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... 5-25015653
There's something odd about that story. Reading the account in the Metro - https://metro.co.uk/2021/09/18/mum-unab ... -15279163/ - we find that:
The caller said he decided to drive her himself because of ambulance delays and was forced to watch her ‘slip away’.
...
It is unclear where the man had called an ambulance from, however, London Service NHS Trust did not report any impact on the service.
It seems very strange that someone would choose to drive to the hospital themselves because they consider it too urgent to wait for an ambulance, but then sit for six hours in a traffic jam without calling an ambulance (which could have got through on lights and siren).
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:42 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:02 pm
bjn wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:59 pm
lpm wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:21 pm

These single-issue protesters are doing just that. Not only did their actions insulate a bunch of homes, they also made themselves remarkably popular with the general public. Win win.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... s-58543603
How many people did they alienate as opposed to recruiting? Many of the 'bl..dy protesters!' types wouldn't care anyway, so are already alienated. How many people will now know of this because of the coverage given to the protest and go, "That's a bl..dy good idea!", even if they think the protesters are somewhat tossers?

No idea. But your implied premise that they alienate more people from their cause than recruit needs more evidence.
The usual objection to blocking major roads is that it might lead to delays for emergency response vehicles. Looks like that happened on the M25: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... 5-25015653
That’s certainly not going to make many people think kindly of them. At least XR were letting ambulances through their protests.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:32 am

bjn wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:42 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:02 pm
bjn wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:59 pm


How many people did they alienate as opposed to recruiting? Many of the 'bl..dy protesters!' types wouldn't care anyway, so are already alienated. How many people will now know of this because of the coverage given to the protest and go, "That's a bl..dy good idea!", even if they think the protesters are somewhat tossers?

No idea. But your implied premise that they alienate more people from their cause than recruit needs more evidence.
The usual objection to blocking major roads is that it might lead to delays for emergency response vehicles. Looks like that happened on the M25: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... 5-25015653
That’s certainly not going to make many people think kindly of them. At least XR were letting ambulances through their protests.
So were Insulate Britain if this photo is to be believed.

Air ambulance was also used when there was a crash https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... y-21573856

The issue here seems to be that the stroke patient wasn't in an ambulance, but a private car. It's not clear if at any point during the six hours the driver called for an ambulance, but it seems that one would have got through.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Woodchopper » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:03 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:52 am
Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:02 pm
The usual objection to blocking major roads is that it might lead to delays for emergency response vehicles. Looks like that happened on the M25: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... 5-25015653
There's something odd about that story. Reading the account in the Metro - https://metro.co.uk/2021/09/18/mum-unab ... -15279163/ - we find that:
The caller said he decided to drive her himself because of ambulance delays and was forced to watch her ‘slip away’.
...
It is unclear where the man had called an ambulance from, however, London Service NHS Trust did not report any impact on the service.
It seems very strange that someone would choose to drive to the hospital themselves because they consider it too urgent to wait for an ambulance, but then sit for six hours in a traffic jam without calling an ambulance (which could have got through on lights and siren).
Yes, that is odd. ETA its possible that the mother was feeling unwell but the son didn't realize how serious is was.

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