The Death Of Fossil Fuels

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dyqik
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:18 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:50 pm
Buses always seem to have a bit of a pause at the end of their route before turning round and heading back again. It should be trivially easy to put a few fast chargers at the bus turning roundy place (not a depot, as such) and give them a bit more juice anyway. Also, bus routes aren't all that long in most cities.
I suspect the idea is that they can run for a whole day's worth of routes without needing to stop and charge.
And likely including a change of driver, so two shifts worth of running.

Around my lab, they've been running with pantographs and overhead wires for at least 50 years, on main city thoroughfares. And with no significant issues with trucks etc. striking the wires. Running through heavy snow, deep freezes, ice storms, hurricanes...

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:49 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:45 am
Thing on BBC news tv this morning about some fancy new electric double decker bus with 5 batteries and a super efficient AC to extend its range (no pantygraphs needed).

I watched for about 5 mins and they still hadn't said what the range was, so I gave up.

Sounds promising anyway.
This one claims 'up to 300 miles'
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by shpalman » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:53 pm

The periphery of Milan around where the Spirit is has trolley buses too. I don't pay enough attention to notice how much of the rest of Milan has them (Milan also has trams).

Zurich has trams and trolley buses.

(It occurs to me that the rest of Europe tends to have single-decker buses, including bendy ones, and double-decker trains.)

Como used to have trams but not anymore. It has an electric train line running through it which causes the city to seize up while the level crossing barriers are down, but recently it's happened a couple of times that some moron in a car has hit the barriers while they weren't fully raised (or lowered) and bent them until they touched the overhead wires. That seized the city and the train lines up quite effectively...
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Little waster » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:58 pm

shpalman wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:53 pm
The periphery of Milan around where the Spirit is has trolley buses too. I don't pay enough attention to notice how much of the rest of Milan has them (Milan also has trams).

Zurich has trams and trolley buses.
I was never entirely sure why trolley buses were phased out in the UK while trams carried on.

They seemed more straightforward, flexible and better suited to a mixed-usage* model of city streets and without the need and expense of having fixed tramlines running everywhere.


*well other than the whole Whispering Death thing but that should be fixable.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:03 pm

Little waster wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:58 pm
shpalman wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:53 pm
The periphery of Milan around where the Spirit is has trolley buses too. I don't pay enough attention to notice how much of the rest of Milan has them (Milan also has trams).

Zurich has trams and trolley buses.
I was never entirely sure why trolley buses were phased out in the UK while trams carried on.

They seemed more straightforward, flexible and better suited to a mixed-usage* model of city streets and without the need and expense of having fixed tramlines running everywhere.


*well other than the whole Whispering Death thing but that should be fixable.
Trolley buses really aren't that quiet.

The biggest issue with them is that in the MBTA's purely overhead powered system, they can't pass each other except in designated places (I think at least some buses carry diesel backup engines, but using them requires the driver to go outside, lower the overhead connections, and start the engine). But adding batteries and a better overhead system could eliminate that issue.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:58 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:50 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:45 am
Thing on BBC news tv this morning about some fancy new electric double decker bus with 5 batteries and a super efficient AC to extend its range (no pantygraphs needed).

I watched for about 5 mins and they still hadn't said what the range was, so I gave up.

Sounds promising anyway.
Buses always seem to have a bit of a pause at the end of their route before turning round and heading back again. It should be trivially easy to put a few fast chargers at the bus turning roundy place (not a depot, as such) and give them a bit more juice anyway. Also, bus routes aren't all that long in most cities.
I suspect the idea is that they can run for a whole day's worth of routes without needing to stop and charge.
Well indeed, and that might be useful in rare circumstances; I was just pointing out that lugging the extra battery around, when the bus stops for a good chunk of time multiple times a day anyway, seems a waste of money.
I do wonder why buses don't have a train-style uncoupling possibility, so you could run a smaller bus off-peak and a full-sized one at peak times. I'm sure someone has done the maths and figured out that it's not worth the risk of leaving half a bus unattended for a few hours a day, but it seems like it might be a useful thing

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by jaap » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:28 pm

tom p wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:58 pm
I do wonder why buses don't have a train-style uncoupling possibility, so you could run a smaller bus off-peak and a full-sized one at peak times. I'm sure someone has done the maths and figured out that it's not worth the risk of leaving half a bus unattended for a few hours a day, but it seems like it might be a useful thing
It's easy enough to swap in a smaller vehicle. In the Netherlands there are plenty of bus routes that use 12-seater Mercedes passenger vans most times.
Last edited by jaap on Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:29 pm

tom p wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:50 pm

Buses always seem to have a bit of a pause at the end of their route before turning round and heading back again. It should be trivially easy to put a few fast chargers at the bus turning roundy place (not a depot, as such) and give them a bit more juice anyway. Also, bus routes aren't all that long in most cities.
I suspect the idea is that they can run for a whole day's worth of routes without needing to stop and charge.
Well indeed, and that might be useful in rare circumstances; I was just pointing out that lugging the extra battery around, when the bus stops for a good chunk of time multiple times a day anyway, seems a waste of money.
I do wonder why buses don't have a train-style uncoupling possibility, so you could run a smaller bus off-peak and a full-sized one at peak times. I'm sure someone has done the maths and figured out that it's not worth the risk of leaving half a bus unattended for a few hours a day, but it seems like it might be a useful thing
Power line connections aside it’s easier to just put more buses on the road than it is to put trains on the rails.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:07 pm

jaap wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:28 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:58 pm
I do wonder why buses don't have a train-style uncoupling possibility, so you could run a smaller bus off-peak and a full-sized one at peak times. I'm sure someone has done the maths and figured out that it's not worth the risk of leaving half a bus unattended for a few hours a day, but it seems like it might be a useful thing
It's easy enough to swap in a smaller vehicle. In the Netherlands there are plenty of bus routes that use 12-seater Mercedes passenger vans most times.
That would work too; however I guess, though, you need to go to the depot to get a new bus. I was thinking of places where the bus won't end up at the depot after a peak-time run, but will end up at a mini bus park. In Southampton & London, the two places where I lived for most of my life, I know that there were plenty of those kind of turning places where the buses would stop for anything from 15-30 minutes before starting their next run (having lived near the end of a couple of lines, I would sometimes be rather frustrated sitting and waiting by the stop while the bus just sat there waiting for its go-time. If some of the buses had uncoupled a carriage and left it there, there would usually be plenty of space for the other buses to come and go.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:09 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:29 pm
tom p wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:58 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:55 pm


I suspect the idea is that they can run for a whole day's worth of routes without needing to stop and charge.
Well indeed, and that might be useful in rare circumstances; I was just pointing out that lugging the extra battery around, when the bus stops for a good chunk of time multiple times a day anyway, seems a waste of money.
I do wonder why buses don't have a train-style uncoupling possibility, so you could run a smaller bus off-peak and a full-sized one at peak times. I'm sure someone has done the maths and figured out that it's not worth the risk of leaving half a bus unattended for a few hours a day, but it seems like it might be a useful thing
Power line connections aside it’s easier to just put more buses on the road than it is to put trains on the rails.
Which is what bus companies do, but that presumably costs extra money in having drivers start the first shift early doors, then having a 2nd shift overlap with the first during morning rush-hour & then having a 3rd shift overlap with them during afternoon/evening rush hours. I was trying to think of a way of increasing peak-time capacity at less extra cost than buying a whole new bus & paying drivers.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:21 pm

Generally you get better service overall by running more buses more frequently in busy periods (which are known in advance).

More frequent services fit passengers schedules better, take less time for boarding and paying fares and don't stop quite as often, so journeys are faster, and are more resilient to breakdowns etc.

There's probably some edge cases where your suggestion makes sense though.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:00 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:45 am
Thing on BBC news tv this morning about some fancy new electric double decker bus with 5 batteries and a super efficient AC to extend its range (no pantygraphs needed).

I watched for about 5 mins and they still hadn't said what the range was, so I gave up.

Sounds promising anyway.
Geoff Marshall did a video on Newcastle's electric buses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8cLJHjneEk) which have a range of ~170 miles on a full charge, and an expected mileage per day of ~150 miles.

Presumably there are some variables on range (weather, number of passengers, number of stops, traffic, route hilliness, etc) but they seem to be operating fine, so a newer model double decker (which would need some weight low down to improve stability, so potentially more batteries is a plus!) should also be OK for a daily range with overnight charging.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:43 am

Martin_B wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:00 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:45 am
Thing on BBC news tv this morning about some fancy new electric double decker bus with 5 batteries and a super efficient AC to extend its range (no pantygraphs needed).

I watched for about 5 mins and they still hadn't said what the range was, so I gave up.

Sounds promising anyway.
Geoff Marshall did a video on Newcastle's electric buses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8cLJHjneEk) which have a range of ~170 miles on a full charge, and an expected mileage per day of ~150 miles.

Presumably there are some variables on range (weather, number of passengers, number of stops, traffic, route hilliness, etc) but they seem to be operating fine, so a newer model double decker (which would need some weight low down to improve stability, so potentially more batteries is a plus!) should also be OK for a daily range with overnight charging.
I forgot about centre of mass. Yeah, you'd actually want a lot of weight down low for a double-decker

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:44 am

dyqik wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:21 pm
Generally you get better service overall by running more buses more frequently in busy periods (which are known in advance).

More frequent services fit passengers schedules better, take less time for boarding and paying fares and don't stop quite as often, so journeys are faster, and are more resilient to breakdowns etc.

There's probably some edge cases where your suggestion makes sense though.
Yeah, you're right about frequency being the most important thing for increasing uptake. That's a very good reason why my idea is sh.t.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:55 pm

Cameron responsible for £2.5BN of annual energy bills.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cu ... ergy-bills
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:21 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:55 pm
Cameron responsible for £2.5BN of annual energy bills.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cu ... ergy-bills
That doesn't even mention his government's decision to effectively scrap all gas reserves, putting Britain at even greater risk of volatility

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:03 pm

tom p wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:21 pm
Grumble wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:55 pm
Cameron responsible for £2.5BN of annual energy bills.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cu ... ergy-bills
That doesn't even mention his government's decision to effectively scrap all gas reserves, putting Britain at even greater risk of volatility
Well no, that’s not within their brief (pun completely intended).
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:07 am

Grumble wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:55 pm
Cameron responsible for £2.5BN of annual energy bills.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cu ... ergy-bills
That headline is rather deceitful. Even if the total spent on energy would have been lower by that amount, it does not mean that every bill would have been lower. The article later says:
The £2.5bn saving would have translated into reductions of around £40 per household
as if the saving would have been evenly distributed (it doesn't say it's an average). But measures such as adding insulation can only affect the houses modified, and many are already insulated so could not benefit. Similarly, building a zero-carbon house can only affect the energy usage of that house. Furthermore, the costs of adding insulation and building to zero-carbon standards are ignored. Householders are not being prevented from using their own money to add insulation to achieve the same savings, if they would be economically possible.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:25 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:07 am
Grumble wrote:
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:55 pm
Cameron responsible for £2.5BN of annual energy bills.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cu ... ergy-bills
That headline is rather deceitful. Even if the total spent on energy would have been lower by that amount, it does not mean that every bill would have been lower. The article later says:
The £2.5bn saving would have translated into reductions of around £40 per household
as if the saving would have been evenly distributed (it doesn't say it's an average). But measures such as adding insulation can only affect the houses modified, and many are already insulated so could not benefit. Similarly, building a zero-carbon house can only affect the energy usage of that house. Furthermore, the costs of adding insulation and building to zero-carbon standards are ignored. Householders are not being prevented from using their own money to add insulation to achieve the same savings, if they would be economically possible.
You miss the point that wider uptake of insulation and other energy saving measures reduces the overall demand, and this lessens the 'spike' in prices we're seeing now when there's a shortfall in generation capacity.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by nekomatic » Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:53 am

Also that the green crap included more wind generation capacity which the report says would have reduced electricity prices for everyone.

There’s nothing remotely deceitful about the headline, which mentions only the total figure and correctly describes it as such, and the report doesn’t misdescribe anything either that I can see. I have no idea why this comment was made.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:11 pm

nekomatic wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 7:53 am
Also that the green crap included more wind generation capacity which the report says would have reduced electricity prices for everyone.
And where would the capital expenditure to build the extra capacity have come from? You can't just count the benefits without also counting the cost.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:31 pm

By partly publicly financing insulation of the UK’s sh.tty housing stock by issuing a bond that would be paid off in the future savings from the winter fuel allowance? Given the cheap cost of capital for the last decade, it would have been a piece of piss.

I’m not even an economist and that one is fricken obvious.

Investing now to save later seems to be a new idea for you.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by nekomatic » Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:42 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:11 pm
And where would the capital expenditure to build the extra capacity have come from? You can't just count the benefits without also counting the cost.
You absolutely can do that, if you don’t pretend to be doing otherwise, which you implied they were but they really weren’t.

One of the ‘green crap’ changes cited was to planning laws, i.e. people may have been willing to invest private capital in building wind capacity which would have supplied cheaper electricity, but were no longer able to.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by nekomatic » Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:28 pm

Well this is bold.

They’re not wrong about ‘0% greenwash’, for sure.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:58 am

Despite rising gas prices, UK voters (including blue wall swingers) don't favour scrapping green levies as a solution. More evidence that consumers are generally willing to invest in a more sustainable future.
https://twitter.com/SteveAkehurst/statu ... 3191749639

OTOH, while I'm at it. Domestic renewables production is often touted as a solution to improve energy security (including by me). But Richard Black points out that UK gas exports are up despite the current crisis: https://twitter.com/SteveAkehurst/statu ... 3191749639. Renewable electrons are also likely to be sold to the highest bidder through an interconnector, so really it would only improve energy security if there were some state control over the supply, which seems at odds with the current economic paradigm.

*hits bong*A smart renewables grid would be quite similar to other markets the government wonks are used to playing around with - all kinds of unpredictable stochastic fluctuations under the yoke of supply-and-demand. Perhaps their role should be, as with financial markets, buying up large reserves to stabilise swings. Storage might be an area where R&D would benefit from a large government order?
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