The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
Post Reply
User avatar
lpm
Junior Mod
Posts: 6265
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:31 pm

They tried to enter the BEV market with the BZX81 but the wheels fell off. Not a metaphor. The wheels literally fell off.

It's a plausible conspiracy theory that some at Toyota deliberately wanted it to fail. Their hydrogen car also went pop. Though this time not literally.
⭐ Awarded gold star 4 November 2021

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2989
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:35 pm

lpm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:31 pm
They tried to enter the BEV market with the BZX81 but the wheels fell off. Not a metaphor. The wheels literally fell off.

It's a plausible conspiracy theory that some at Toyota deliberately wanted it to fail. Their hydrogen car also went pop. Though this time not literally.
Same can’t be said about H2 refuelling stations. Several of which have gone pop. Well more like “bang”.

https://insideevs.com/news/354223/hydro ... -explodes/

User avatar
Trinucleus
Dorkwood
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:45 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Trinucleus » Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:50 pm

There was a suggestion in our local paper to name storms after oil companies rather than a generic name.

The most recent one would be Storm BP

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2989
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:15 pm

The International Energy Agency is finally seeing the light. We’ll no longer have them regularly pumping out projections of solar cell production flat lining, while reality showed exponential growth. Now they are estimating a 1.2TW (!) global production capacity by 2030. Note that 0.8TW is needed by then for the current net zero 2050 target. More still needs to be done, but this is good news.

Faith Birol, the director said…
The transition to clean energy is happening worldwide, and it’s unstoppable. It’s not a question of ‘if,’ it’s just a matter of ‘how soon’—and the sooner the better for all of us.
Meanwhile Sunak and the Tories as still being dicks.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/10 ... e-climate/

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Fri Oct 27, 2023 4:32 pm

That’s Fatih, rather than Faith, which I assume was an autocorrupt
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:05 am

All of the records tracked in the National Grid ESO app are from this year, except hours of no coal. Coal generation is still down in terms of MWh though
IMG_0844.png
IMG_0844.png (175.49 KiB) Viewed 7847 times
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
TimW
Catbabel
Posts: 840
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:27 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by TimW » Fri Nov 24, 2023 9:25 am

Norway/Germany: Feasibility study on a hydrogen value chain between Norway and Germany

The joint feasibility study on a hydrogen value chain between Norway and Germany has now been published. The study shows that, given a number of assumptions, it is technically feasible to establish a value chain for transporting large quantities of hydrogen from Norway to Germany.

https://www.energy-pedia.com/news/norwa ... any-193376

User avatar
Fishnut
After Pie
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Fishnut » Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:10 pm

President of Cop28 says there's 'no evidence' that fossil fuels need to be phased out to avert climate change,
The president of Cop28, Sultan Al Jaber, has claimed there is “no science” indicating that a phase-out of fossil fuels is needed to restrict global heating to 1.5C, the Guardian and the Centre for Climate Reporting can reveal.

Al Jaber also said a phase-out of fossil fuels would not allow sustainable development “unless you want to take the world back into caves”.
...
Al Jaber spoke with Robinson at a She Changes Climate event. Robinson said: “We’re in an absolute crisis that is hurting women and children more than anyone … and it’s because we have not yet committed to phasing out fossil fuel. That is the one decision that Cop28 can take and in many ways, because you’re head of Adnoc, you could actually take it with more credibility.”

Al Jaber said: “I accepted to come to this meeting to have a sober and mature conversation. I’m not in any way signing up to any discussion that is alarmist. There is no science out there, or no scenario out there, that says that the phase-out of fossil fuel is what’s going to achieve 1.5C.”
it's okay to say "I don't know"

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:04 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:10 pm
President of Cop28 says there's 'no evidence' that fossil fuels need to be phased out to avert climate change,
The president of Cop28, Sultan Al Jaber, has claimed there is “no science” indicating that a phase-out of fossil fuels is needed to restrict global heating to 1.5C, the Guardian and the Centre for Climate Reporting can reveal.

Al Jaber also said a phase-out of fossil fuels would not allow sustainable development “unless you want to take the world back into caves”.
...
Al Jaber spoke with Robinson at a She Changes Climate event. Robinson said: “We’re in an absolute crisis that is hurting women and children more than anyone … and it’s because we have not yet committed to phasing out fossil fuel. That is the one decision that Cop28 can take and in many ways, because you’re head of Adnoc, you could actually take it with more credibility.”

Al Jaber said: “I accepted to come to this meeting to have a sober and mature conversation. I’m not in any way signing up to any discussion that is alarmist. There is no science out there, or no scenario out there, that says that the phase-out of fossil fuel is what’s going to achieve 1.5C.”
I’m shocked to hear that the head of an oil producer doesn’t think we should phase out fossil fuel use.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
Fishnut
After Pie
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Fishnut » Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:24 pm

Grumble wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:04 pm
I’m shocked to hear that the head of an oil producer doesn’t think we should phase out fossil fuel use.
Amazing isn't it. Almost like a country whose wealth, and that of its leaders, is based on fossil fuels wasn't the best choice for hosting a conference on climate change.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

User avatar
nekomatic
Dorkwood
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by nekomatic » Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:41 pm

“unless you want to take the world back into caves”
...
“I’m not in any way signing up to any discussion that is alarmist.”
:|
Move-a… side, and let the mango through… let the mango through

IvanV
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2951
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:22 pm

Finally, it is mass news that air source heat pumps are now so much better, they are energetically feasible for a high proportion of British houses, without expensive retrofits to achieve modern standards of insulation, or new radiators. The big step forward is provided by better refrigerants. Not only are these less environmentally harmful if leaked, but also can provide:

The same output temperatures as gas boilers
While still delivering a COP of 3

That second point is particularly significant, because it has always been possible to run heat pumps at higher temperature outputs, but this this was typically sufficiently detrimental to the COP that the economics were horrible. A COP of 3 is typically the point at which the economics get nice. These heat pumps will also provide a very nice COP if you can run at lower temperature. And you may have the ability to adjust the operating temperature to the weather and benefit from that.

This is not to say it suddenly becomes easy to retrofit heatpumps in every house or apartment. This is only energetic feasibility. Practical fitting feasibility can still be difficult, especially in smaller properties, apartments, etc. The big issue is that they are large in comparison to gas boilers, and have more restrictions on where you can put them. And they don't provide the kind of instant hot water necessary for having a shower or whatever, so you will either need the kind of hot water store that combi boilers avoid, or else a separate electric provider of instant hot water. Electric showers demonstrate that these do not have to be large, but they are less efficient.

User avatar
bjn
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2989
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm
Location: London

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:35 pm

IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:22 pm
Finally, it is mass news that air source heat pumps are now so much better, they are energetically feasible for a high proportion of British houses, without expensive retrofits to achieve modern standards of insulation, or new radiators. The big step forward is provided by better refrigerants. Not only are these less environmentally harmful if leaked, but also can provide:

The same output temperatures as gas boilers
While still delivering a COP of 3

That second point is particularly significant, because it has always been possible to run heat pumps at higher temperature outputs, but this this was typically sufficiently detrimental to the COP that the economics were horrible. A COP of 3 is typically the point at which the economics get nice. These heat pumps will also provide a very nice COP if you can run at lower temperature. And you may have the ability to adjust the operating temperature to the weather and benefit from that.

This is not to say it suddenly becomes easy to retrofit heatpumps in every house or apartment. This is only energetic feasibility. Practical fitting feasibility can still be difficult, especially in smaller properties, apartments, etc. The big issue is that they are large in comparison to gas boilers, and have more restrictions on where you can put them. And they don't provide the kind of instant hot water necessary for having a shower or whatever, so you will either need the kind of hot water store that combi boilers avoid, or else a separate electric provider of instant hot water. Electric showers demonstrate that these do not have to be large, but they are less efficient.
I find it weird that propane is the magic refrigerant in question that gave the improved efficiency. I would have thought that would have been tried long ago.

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:47 pm

bjn wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:35 pm
IvanV wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:22 pm
Finally, it is mass news that air source heat pumps are now so much better, they are energetically feasible for a high proportion of British houses, without expensive retrofits to achieve modern standards of insulation, or new radiators. The big step forward is provided by better refrigerants. Not only are these less environmentally harmful if leaked, but also can provide:

The same output temperatures as gas boilers
While still delivering a COP of 3

That second point is particularly significant, because it has always been possible to run heat pumps at higher temperature outputs, but this this was typically sufficiently detrimental to the COP that the economics were horrible. A COP of 3 is typically the point at which the economics get nice. These heat pumps will also provide a very nice COP if you can run at lower temperature. And you may have the ability to adjust the operating temperature to the weather and benefit from that.

This is not to say it suddenly becomes easy to retrofit heatpumps in every house or apartment. This is only energetic feasibility. Practical fitting feasibility can still be difficult, especially in smaller properties, apartments, etc. The big issue is that they are large in comparison to gas boilers, and have more restrictions on where you can put them. And they don't provide the kind of instant hot water necessary for having a shower or whatever, so you will either need the kind of hot water store that combi boilers avoid, or else a separate electric provider of instant hot water. Electric showers demonstrate that these do not have to be large, but they are less efficient.
I find it weird that propane is the magic refrigerant in question that gave the improved efficiency. I would have thought that would have been tried long ago.
Not for domestic use, I think, but ammonia is pretty good as a refrigerant as well.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

IvanV
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2951
Joined: Mon May 17, 2021 11:12 am

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by IvanV » Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:01 pm

bjn wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 3:35 pm
I find it weird that propane is the magic refrigerant in question that gave the improved efficiency. I would have thought that would have been tried long ago.
Propane's excellence as a refrigerant has long been known. But when trying to make a cheap, simple, reliable and safe piece of equipment, CFOs have more convenient properties, even if the heat transfer is less efficient.

So it seems to have been technically tricky to make a design to enable the safe and practical use of propane as a refrigerant in domestic-sized units at a reasonable cost, in particular because of its high flammability.

User avatar
Sciolus
Dorkwood
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:42 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Sciolus » Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:58 pm

Indeed, the BBC article says "they cannot be located near to air bricks or windows at ground level, to eliminate the risk of the refrigerant, which is flammable, leaking into such areas", which would seem to be a significant constraint. Unlike natural gas, propane is denser than air; but it's used for domestic energy already so I can't see that that's a showstopper.

insignificant
Clardic Fug
Posts: 204
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:14 pm
Location: Coventry

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by insignificant » Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:20 pm

My dehumidifer uses propane as a refrigerant (R290)

Perhaps the quantity needed for a heat pump presents more of a challenge

User avatar
Martin_B
After Pie
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:20 pm
Location: Perth, WA

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Tue Jan 02, 2024 11:52 pm

Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:58 pm
[snip] Unlike natural gas, propane is denser than air [/snip]
Ahem: "Unlike methane, propane is denser than air." Propane is a natural gas, too, and I've dealt with several natural gas mixtures which are denser than air.
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5412
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Wed Jan 03, 2024 9:49 am

Martin_B wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 11:52 pm
Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:58 pm
[snip] Unlike natural gas, propane is denser than air [/snip]
Ahem: "Unlike methane, propane is denser than air." Propane is a natural gas, too, and I've dealt with several natural gas mixtures which are denser than air.
True... but...
In UK we use 'natural gas' as the gas provided through the national gas grid, which is methane. The term distinguishes it from 'town gas' (aka 'coal gas') which was replaced in UK in the 1960s and 70s.

Unqualified, that's how it's understood.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:19 am

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2024 9:49 am
Martin_B wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 11:52 pm
Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:58 pm
[snip] Unlike natural gas, propane is denser than air [/snip]
Ahem: "Unlike methane, propane is denser than air." Propane is a natural gas, too, and I've dealt with several natural gas mixtures which are denser than air.
True... but...
In UK we use 'natural gas' as the gas provided through the national gas grid, which is methane. The term distinguishes it from 'town gas' (aka 'coal gas') which was replaced in UK in the 1960s and 70s.

Unqualified, that's how it's understood.
That’s true, but worth noting that it’s a marketing term designed to make people feel good about using gas because they like the word “natural”.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
nekomatic
Dorkwood
Posts: 1425
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by nekomatic » Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:22 am

insignificant wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 8:20 pm
My dehumidifer uses propane as a refrigerant (R290)

Perhaps the quantity needed for a heat pump presents more of a challenge
I’m pretty sure it’s standard in fridges too. But a heat pump will be many times more powerful so you’re probably right about the quantity being the issue.
Move-a… side, and let the mango through… let the mango through

User avatar
Gfamily
Light of Blast
Posts: 5412
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm
Location: NW England

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:29 pm

Grumble wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:19 am
That’s true, but worth noting that it’s a marketing term designed to make people feel good about using gas because they like the word “natural”.
It may seem a bit blunt, but that's bollocks.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
Grumble
Light of Blast
Posts: 4956
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 pm

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:05 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:29 pm
Grumble wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:19 am
That’s true, but worth noting that it’s a marketing term designed to make people feel good about using gas because they like the word “natural”.
It may seem a bit blunt, but that's bollocks.
It’s something I heard tbf and can’t back up with a quick search, but it’s reasonable to ask why it’s called natural gas. It’s a name put out by the gas companies who wanted to sell it as better than town gas.
where once I used to scintillate
now I sin till ten past three

User avatar
bolo
Dorkwood
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:17 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bolo » Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:59 pm

It's been called natural gas since long before the transition away from using coal gas, e.g. plenty of geological book titles in the 1800s:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%22n ... lr=lang_en

User avatar
Martin_B
After Pie
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:20 pm
Location: Perth, WA

Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Wed Jan 03, 2024 10:32 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2024 9:49 am
Martin_B wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 11:52 pm
Sciolus wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 7:58 pm
[snip] Unlike natural gas, propane is denser than air [/snip]
Ahem: "Unlike methane, propane is denser than air." Propane is a natural gas, too, and I've dealt with several natural gas mixtures which are denser than air.
True... but...
In UK we use 'natural gas' as the gas provided through the national gas grid, which is methane. The term distinguishes it from 'town gas' (aka 'coal gas') which was replaced in UK in the 1960s and 70s.

Unqualified, that's how it's understood.
Natural gas is gas which comes from gas reservoirs, and is a mix of various different components, not just methane. Methane is usually the most common component, but ethane, propane, butane (both isomers), even pentane can be present. Components with greater molecular masses generally get liquified and turned into other products.
But as these other components are also present, some natural gas mixtures are denser than air. So the venting arrangements for a propane-based heat exchange fluid need not be so very different to a standard venting arrangement (the point I was trying to make, obviously unsuccessfully!) ;)
"My interest is in the future, because I'm going to spend the rest of my life there"

Post Reply