The Death Of Fossil Fuels

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plodder
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:55 am

Probably right, I can't see EVs catching on either.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by sheldrake » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:13 am

plodder wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:55 am
Probably right, I can't see EVs catching on either.
Or maybe there won't be charging points everywhere, but people will use public transport and work from home a lot more?

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lpm
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:14 am

Did the Sinclair C5 reach 21% of Europe's new car sales, overtaking diesel on 20%? I can't remember.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:16 am

Yes, and then remember when the government announced a moratorium on all non-Sinclair C5 cars starting a decade hence?
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by sheldrake » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:20 am

Note last post. I'm not saying people won't have electric cars.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:37 am

Children, stop the bickering before I call your mother.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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lpm
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:49 am

If there are electric cars, there will be electric car charging points. This is kind of obvious to most of us so not sure why you're struggling.

If Ionity install a dozen ultra fast chargers in a remote country lane they'll lose money, if they install them at motorway services they'll make money, just like any business wanting to profit from passing trade. Already Tesco are installing loads and offering their shoppers a couple of quid's worth of free electricity, while the nearby Sainsbury's has nothing. If night time electricity is cheapest, individuals will seek out overnight charging products, if loads of solar made day time electricity cheapest individuals would seek out day time solutions.

You seem to have confused yourself in demanding an investment analysis from me, normally wouldn't you simply leave it up to individuals and companies to do their own thing, winning or losing according to the decisions they make?
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:04 am

There were electric charging points outside most supermarkets I visited in Iceland this summer.

Electric vehicles are currently 10% of the fleet there, but over half of new registrations. https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news ... n_iceland/

(I don't have the stats, but suspect EVs are mostly for locals rather than tourists - for people wanting to take selfies by a range of waterfalls, volcanoes and glaciers range anxiety may well put them off hiring a full EV, though I guess a hybrid would be suitable. Cheap electricity and expensive petrol helps.)
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by sheldrake » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am

lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:49 am
If there are electric cars, there will be electric car charging points.
We were talking about where and how many.
If Ionity install a dozen ultra fast chargers in a remote country lane they'll lose money, if they install them at motorway services they'll make money, just like any business wanting to profit from passing trade. Already Tesco are installing loads and offering their shoppers a couple of quid's worth of free electricity, while the nearby Sainsbury's has nothing. If night time electricity is cheapest, individuals will seek out overnight charging products, if loads of solar made day time electricity cheapest individuals would seek out day time solutions.

You seem to have confused yourself in demanding an investment analysis from me, normally wouldn't you simply leave it up to individuals and companies to do their own thing, winning or losing according to the decisions they make?
Yes I would. That's why I don't expect mass charging points in work parking spaces. I think the cost vs letting people work from home a lot more won't be worth it.

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Grumble
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:22 am

sheldrake wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am
lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:49 am
If there are electric cars, there will be electric car charging points.
We were talking about where and how many.
If Ionity install a dozen ultra fast chargers in a remote country lane they'll lose money, if they install them at motorway services they'll make money, just like any business wanting to profit from passing trade. Already Tesco are installing loads and offering their shoppers a couple of quid's worth of free electricity, while the nearby Sainsbury's has nothing. If night time electricity is cheapest, individuals will seek out overnight charging products, if loads of solar made day time electricity cheapest individuals would seek out day time solutions.

You seem to have confused yourself in demanding an investment analysis from me, normally wouldn't you simply leave it up to individuals and companies to do their own thing, winning or losing according to the decisions they make?
Yes I would. That's why I don't expect mass charging points in work parking spaces. I think the cost vs letting people work from home a lot more won't be worth it.
Don’t know about that. Most businesses don’t own their premises, the landlords will probably see it as a benefit to entice companies to their properties.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Gfamily » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:24 am

I noticed a charging point at the base of a streetlamp in Kingston Upon Thames - apparently, one of 100 that were to have been installed over the summer.
24p/kWh

https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/1916 ... -kingston/
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:29 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:04 am
There were electric charging points outside most supermarkets I visited in Iceland this summer.

Electric vehicles are currently 10% of the fleet there, but over half of new registrations. https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news ... n_iceland/

(I don't have the stats, but suspect EVs are mostly for locals rather than tourists - for people wanting to take selfies by a range of waterfalls, volcanoes and glaciers range anxiety may well put them off hiring a full EV, though I guess a hybrid would be suitable. Cheap electricity and expensive petrol helps.)
All of tourist Iceland is easily within EV range. A day trip Reykjavik to Thingvellir and round the lake is only 100 miles, to those geysers and back 150 miles. You'd have to go all the way to Vik and back along that south road to need a top up at the destination or en route. And don't forget more and more tourists will have EVs back home, particularly those from civilised countries like Norway, and won't want to drive a sh.t ICE vehicle.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:37 am

Certainly a lot of it is, especially if you're Reykjavík-based.

For people planning to visit national parks, drive the whole ring road, cross the centre through the mountains etc etc I can understand wanting guarantees of a solid rapid charging network (perhaps there already is one). No idea what proportion of tourists that is, but probably a small one.

Once you get past Vik it's all a bit different. I even managed to find a petrol station that only took Icelandic bank cards, and my fuel light was already on at that point.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:50 am

sheldrake wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am
Yes I would. That's why I don't expect mass charging points in work parking spaces. I think the cost vs letting people work from home a lot more won't be worth it.
You know a charging point is basically just a plug? You seem to be imagining some billion pound piece of equipment.

Ask an electrician to install a new plug. Then say it has to be outside and waterproof so more expensive than an ordinary indoor plug. And it needs to be a 7kW so more expensive again. Electrician tells you it needs an RCD protector which is a bit more money, and earthing or whatever, so the costs add up. And a hole needs to be drilled in the wall. A bit of cable run. The plug installed and wired up by the qualified electrician. Oh and you want the plug to be wifi or SIM enabled, so you can control it on an app, and the electronics for that costs some more. This is why it all adds up and costs £700 or £1,000 or similar to get one installed in your home, depending on how fancy you want the electronics, and how complicated the cabling and install, and how pretty you want it to be.

But it's basically just a plug. Stop being so scared of the costs! The real expense is in the local electricity network - it can be a challenge to get all the zillions of kW needed for a row of a dozen ultra fast chargers at the motorway services. Which is why a row of 7kW destination chargers are likely to be better. And there will definitely be offices that have a limited supply until the grid sorts itself out over the years, a bit like there's still dud patches in the mobile phone reception.

But here's the good bit. You can charge people money for them to charge electrons. You can pay 10p/kWH to your electricity supplier but charge 24p/kWh to customers, visitors and employees. Profit! Obviously the whole thing will be outsourced, because that's the way everything works in the modern world, and you'll sign up with a company who'll do all the install and maintenance and get the profit. Which is exactly what all these supermarkets and pub chains and shopping malls are doing. You can even get your profit by encouraging more customers to arrive, shop for longer and spend more - which is why restaurant chains and Tescos are prepared to subsidise the charge or even give it free.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:54 am

Fibre optic cables in the Docklands area of London are threaded through old redundant steam pipes used by the Victorians to power cranes unloading booty from the Empire. I think there's a lesson there for risk averse people who want things to be all planned out before allowing anything to change.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by sheldrake » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:00 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:50 am
sheldrake wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am
Yes I would. That's why I don't expect mass charging points in work parking spaces. I think the cost vs letting people work from home a lot more won't be worth it.
You know a charging point is basically just a plug? You seem to be imagining some billion pound piece of equipment.

Ask an electrician to install a new plug. Then say it has to be outside and waterproof so more expensive than an ordinary indoor plug. And it needs to be a 7kW so more expensive again. Electrician tells you it needs an RCD protector which is a bit more money, and earthing or whatever, so the costs add up. And a hole needs to be drilled in the wall. A bit of cable run. The plug installed and wired up by the qualified electrician. Oh and you want the plug to be wifi or SIM enabled, so you can control it on an app, and the electronics for that costs some more. This is why it all adds up and costs £700 or £1,000 or similar to get one installed in your home, depending on how fancy you want the electronics, and how complicated the cabling and install, and how pretty you want it to be.

But it's basically just a plug. Stop being so scared of the costs! The real expense is in the local electricity network - it can be a challenge to get all the zillions of kW needed for a row of a dozen ultra fast chargers at the motorway services. Which is why a row of 7kW destination chargers are likely to be better. And there will definitely be offices that have a limited supply until the grid sorts itself out over the years, a bit like there's still dud patches in the mobile phone reception.

But here's the good bit. You can charge people money for them to charge electrons. You can pay 10p/kWH to your electricity supplier but charge 24p/kWh to customers, visitors and employees. Profit! Obviously the whole thing will be outsourced, because that's the way everything works in the modern world, and you'll sign up with a company who'll do all the install and maintenance and get the profit. Which is exactly what all these supermarkets and pub chains and shopping malls are doing. You can even get your profit by encouraging more customers to arrive, shop for longer and spend more - which is why restaurant chains and Tescos are prepared to subsidise the charge or even give it free.
My local tescos (the big one!) only has 2 charging points across hundreds of spaces and one of them has been broken for over a week.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:01 pm

They should fix the broken one, and install more.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:13 pm

The initial Tesco plan was 2,400 chargers at 600 stores. All in partnership with a supplier and sponsored by VW - a lot come with those TV advertising screens. I think they're about half way through. I don't know the economics of it, but obviously their strategy of offering free electricity to customers is very similar to when they used to run "spend £100 in store and get a coupon for 4p off a litre of fuel".

Morrisons are chasing them hard, Lidl are beginning to chase, Waitrose is starting. Sainsburys are the back runner - but maybe this will prove to be the winning strategy if it all turns out to be a waste of money like Sheldrake expects.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:15 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:01 pm
They should fix the broken one, and install more.
ffs BOAF how long would that take? How much would it cost? What would be the point? Don't you get it? Why don't you get it? Why does no one ever get it? Why can't anyone ever get it? <collapses into sobs>

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by wilsontown » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:59 pm

The office that I have just moved to has a nice shiny row of chargers outside. I work for an oilfield services company.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:32 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:24 am
I noticed a charging point at the base of a streetlamp in Kingston Upon Thames - apparently, one of 100 that were to have been installed over the summer.
24p/kWh

https://www.surreycomet.co.uk/news/1916 ... -kingston/
There is one literally just outside my front door, and another five in my street. You just phone up the council and they have a charging company install it.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:16 pm

My office has installed loads of charging points. They did years ago.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:20 pm

So has mine and we’re also installing them on our construction sites for the team to use. Should clarify - these ones will be temporary during the construction phase (unless there’s a good reason to make them permanent)

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:28 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:16 pm
My office has installed loads of charging points. They did years ago.
Yeah, but you work in or near Milton Keynes, electric car central. My entire science park has about 4 charge points.
You’ve got no chutzpah, your organisational skills are lacklustre and your timekeeping is abysmal.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:23 am

Grumble wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:28 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:16 pm
My office has installed loads of charging points. They did years ago.
Yeah, but you work in or near Milton Keynes, electric car central. My entire science park has about 4 charge points.
Have you talked to the science park management about installing more?
Of course, their answer may be that there isn't the call for them as they don't get fully used as it is, but it's a positive feedback loop - the more charging points are around the more people will see EVs as a legitimate mode of transport for their needs and so the number of EVs will increase and yo need more charging points. It's always slightly surprising to me how many organisations don't see this until everyone starts doing it and then there's a rush to install (very similar to panic buying of fuel!)
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