The Death Of Fossil Fuels

[shpalman]

With the sentence A couple from Kent have described how it took them more than nine hours to drive 130 miles home from Bournemouth as they struggled to find a working charger capable of producing enough power to their electric car the Guardian avoids having to #secondmention by missing words out entirely.

Seems like the biggest issue there was that they weren't prepared to queue anywhere.

"there was a queue to use the 7kW slow charger, which was working but came with a “distinctly unhelpful” 45-minute time limit"

So they could have eventually gotten 5.3 kWh if they'd waited, which (based on the Taycan having 80-90 kWh capacity and a range of 333-463 km) would have gotten them about 20-30 km.

[Martin Y]

A nearly-finished prototype EV bolt-in kit for old MX-5s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZws7kE3U5k (Which will probably be the basis for kits for a bunch of old MGs, Triumphs etc. Builder's channel with a series of videos is here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqZtga ... k9NazBuaow )

Upside: Looks well made and ideal for me to keep commuting into West London in my 27 year old car without paying £12.50 per day when the ULEZ expands beyond my workplace next year.

Downsides: £20 grand kit. Same price as my paying ULEZ fees upfront right up to retirement age, which puts it in perspective. And no fast charging which means realistically it isn't a car for fun daytrips, it's a car with a 50 mile operating radius.

[FlammableFlower]

They do have a point though, the public charging network is fragmented, unreliable and sparse. Especially outside of London. It’s something that early adopters have often complained about and it is something that needs to improve. I’m happy with the idea of charging at home but it’s not possible for everyone.

Yes and no. The Taycan is a bit out it's own, but it's true that the current state of affairs is a bit sh.t. Whilst it's slowly changing, for ages (and still the case with a lot of providers) you had to have their own RFID card to use them, each of which required a subscription. Which either meant you had to shell out for loads of cards or had a limited set of charge points available.

This is rubbish.

They're finally getting around to just requiring any credit/debit card to pay, but a lot still require you register with them and have an app. You end up, like car parking apps, with dozens odd the buggers on your phone for that one time you need it. Where I am is a bit of a charging point desert - there are two about 15 minutes away, but they're slow and would only be for a top-up whilst you shop.

As such, although I've owned a Zoe since February, I've only ever charged it at work (which handily is free) - I just can't be arsed with trying to figure out anything else.

I also get a bit miffed with the environs: unlike a petrol station, I've yet to see a charging point with a roof over it. Why not do that and then add in solar panels on top. Utilise the space for something additional.

[Grumble]

Near me there are a few 3kW chargers in a Park and Ride, clearly intended for leaving all day, after that you have to travel a bit further. There’s a Lidl in Stockport with 50kW chargers - issues reported. None of the main supermarkets have anything. I’ve not encountered a workplace with charging yet, although the science park I work at does have some in a pay and display I think.

[bjn]

Literally one outside my front gate on a lamppost, plus a whole bunch of them scattered around West London. YMMV. I was putting a Taycan together on the Porsche website last night for shiggles. Boy does it get expensive(r) very fast.

[Grumble]

I also get a bit miffed with the environs: unlike a petrol station, I've yet to see a charging point with a roof over it. Why not do that and then add in solar panels on top. Utilise the space for something additional.

EVM had an episode about this recently.
https://youtu.be/7nKstGJ4JRo

[sTeamTraen]

A nearly-finished prototype EV bolt-in kit for old MX-5s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZws7kE3U5k (Which will probably be the basis for kits for a bunch of old MGs, Triumphs etc. Builder's channel with a series of videos is here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqZtga ... k9NazBuaow )

Upside: Looks well made and ideal for me to keep commuting into West London in my 27 year old car without paying £12.50 per day when the ULEZ expands beyond my workplace next year.

Downsides: £20 grand kit. Same price as my paying ULEZ fees upfront right up to retirement age, which puts it in perspective. And no fast charging which means realistically it isn't a car for fun daytrips, it's a car with a 50 mile operating radius.

Also, an MX-5 makes a gawwwgeous sound. I reluctantly sold my 2000 1.6 with additional turbo and double exhaust last year, but my goodness you felt like you were operating a machine. These days I don't want to operate a machine, I just want to be somewhere else from where I am now, so a Prius taxi is fine --- but when you have the top down on a country lane it is hard to beat the MX-5 (ICE) package. Hopefully, coming generations will get their pleasure from the g-forces and occasional swishing noises from the tyres.

[Millennie Al]

With the sentence A couple from Kent have described how it took them more than nine hours to drive 130 miles home from Bournemouth as they struggled to find a working charger capable of producing enough power to their electric car the Guardian avoids having to #secondmention by missing words out entirely.

Seems like the biggest issue there was that they weren't prepared to queue anywhere.

When a 'fast' charge takes 40 minutes, it's not really reasonable to queue unless it's only the current user and they're part way through. If you pulled up at a petrol pump and found eight people ahead of you who tok five minutes each, you'd be talking for months about the enormous 40 minute wait you had.

In the ariticle the queue was to use a facility that imposed a 45 minute wait. Assuming the limit was needed because people would otherwise take longer, it suggests that a queue there could easily mean hours waiting. That's pretty impractical.

[Grumble]

Lithium mining in Cornwall could be a goer. I really hope this proves viable, it depends on how easy it is to separate the lithium out of the brine I think.

[jimbob]

With the sentence A couple from Kent have described how it took them more than nine hours to drive 130 miles home from Bournemouth as they struggled to find a working charger capable of producing enough power to their electric car the Guardian avoids having to #secondmention by missing words out entirely.

Seems like the biggest issue there was that they weren't prepared to queue anywhere.

When a 'fast' charge takes 40 minutes, it's not really reasonable to queue unless it's only the current user and they're part way through. If you pulled up at a petrol pump and found eight people ahead of you who tok five minutes each, you'd be talking for months about the enormous 40 minute wait you had.

In the ariticle the queue was to use a facility that imposed a 45 minute wait. Assuming the limit was needed because people would otherwise take longer, it suggests that a queue there could easily mean hours waiting. That's pretty impractical.

This is one reason why I still think that fuel cells will have a place. For example, google suggests methanol has about 4.89kWh/litre. So if you transfer 45ltrs, you get 220kWh (less any efficiencies) - you can easily do that in 5 minutes. Whereas to charge a 220kWh battery in the same 5 minutes, you'd need 2.64MW and have challenging currents or voltages (or both) to deliver this. Especially if you envision say a fairly standard 8-pump petrol station being replaced by chargers with similar hourly capacity for battery EVs.

Ammonia is another possibility. (3.6 kWh/liter at 25° C) from this PDF here: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files ... r_2006.pdf

[shpalman]

Yes, liquid fuel is more energy-dense and faster to "recharge", that's why we currently use petrol and diesel. To make progress it just needs to be something which you can generate relatively efficiently from green electricity.

[Grumble]

As long as you have enough range for a day’s travel and can therefore charge overnight batteries are clear winners over fuel cells - and the driver spends less time doing that than they would do refuelling with diesel. Multi-day journeys, such as by ships, are where fuel cells win out.

[Bird on a Fire]

Swapping batteries instead of charging them would work too, especially if manufacturers limited themselves to a few standard models (lol). Probably even quicker than pumping a tank full of fuel.

Plus manufacturers could then rope owners into a lifelong subscription rather than just selling them a product, which seems to be the business model preferred by late-stage capitalism.

[shpalman]

Every two years or so, we would get into the car in Scunthorpe, drive to Dover, take the ferry to Oostende, and then drive from Ostende to Trenčín in Slovakia. Via Austria* it would take 28 hours in total.

Google currently says Scunthorpe-Dover is just over 4 hours, about 400 km (4.5 hours and 440 km if you take the M1 instead of the A1). Oostende-Trenčín is given as 13 hours, 1400 km.

In my car, if I left with a full tank, I would have to refuel three times. Your mileage may vary of course. You could also suggest that doing the whole thing in one go with barely any rest stops let alone an overnight stay somewhere is f.cking stupid, and you'd be right. On the way back we would stop over in Leverkusen.

Anyway my point is that you could probably do at least 800 km in a day with a stop for lunch, which in a petrol or diesel car would require at most a few minutes refuelling at lunchtime. So an electric car could make sense if 400 km of range can be recharged in half an hour or so, or if it had 800 km of range which could be recharged overnight.

The ID.3 is listed as having a range of 420 km in standard configuration with a 58 kWh battery, which is enough for the former case, and can be upgraded to 540 km with a 77 kWh battery for only about £10,000 more than the base model. At the rated 7 kW of that low-power charging point for which there was a queue, it's about 8 hours of charging to do 400 km. You'd need to find a 50 kW charger at lunchtime.

tl;dr there isn't an electric car yet which has enough range for a day's travel if you actually intend to travel all day.

* - Actually the worst time was when we had to go the whole length of Czechia** since my uncles had previously driven to visit us in the UK and they didn't have a visa for travelling through Austria; that trip took 32 hours.

** - this was at a time when Czechoslovakia was still a thing.

[Grumble]

Every two years or so, we would get into the car in Scunthorpe, drive to Dover, take the ferry to Oostende, and then drive from Ostende to Trenčín in Slovakia. Via Austria* it would take 28 hours in total.

Google currently says Scunthorpe-Dover is just over 4 hours, about 400 km (4.5 hours and 440 km if you take the M1 instead of the A1). Oostende-Trenčín is given as 13 hours, 1400 km.

In my car, if I left with a full tank, I would have to refuel three times. Your mileage may vary of course. You could also suggest that doing the whole thing in one go with barely any rest stops let alone an overnight stay somewhere is f.cking stupid, and you'd be right. On the way back we would stop over in Leverkusen.

Anyway my point is that you could probably do at least 800 km in a day with a stop for lunch, which in a petrol or diesel car would require at most a few minutes refuelling at lunchtime. So an electric car could make sense if 400 km of range can be recharged in half an hour or so, or if it had 800 km of range which could be recharged overnight.

The ID.3 is listed as having a range of 420 km in standard configuration with a 58 kWh battery, which is enough for the former case, and can be upgraded to 540 km with a 77 kWh battery for only about £10,000 more than the base model. At the rated 7 kW of that low-power charging point for which there was a queue, it's about 8 hours of charging to do 400 km. You'd need to find a 50 kW charger at lunchtime.

tl;dr there isn't an electric car yet which has enough range for a day's travel if you actually intend to travel all day.

* - Actually the worst time was when we had to go the whole length of Czechia** since my uncles had previously driven to visit us in the UK and they didn't have a visa for travelling through Austria; that trip took 32 hours.

** - this was at a time when Czechoslovakia was still a thing.

Not just stupid but actually illegal - unless you share the driving

[dyqik]

It's about the same as the drive my wife would do to and from University 4-5 times a year, on her own. Usually over two full days though.

Dallas to Amherst, MA, 1800 miles, 25 hours driving. Far cheaper than flying though, even with the motel.

Sometimes she'd go via Florida, for the change.

[AMS]

Lithium mining in Cornwall could be a goer. I really hope this proves viable, it depends on how easy it is to separate the lithium out of the brine I think.

That would be cool, and apart from anything else, the old mining districts around Redruth could do with the income.

[Grumble]

Lithium mining in Cornwall could be a goer. I really hope this proves viable, it depends on how easy it is to separate the lithium out of the brine I think.

That would be cool, and apart from anything else, the old mining districts around Redruth could do with the income.

Absolutely.

The Simon Reeve shows about Cornwall are worth watching - he’s a great documentary maker.

[Millennie Al]

As long as you have enough range for a day’s travel and can therefore charge overnight batteries are clear winners over fuel cells - and the driver spends less time doing that than they would do refuelling with diesel. Multi-day journeys, such as by ships, are where fuel cells win out.

Only if you can be sure of finding a charging facility where you can stay the night. Otherwise you're limited to how far you can go and return home in one day. Of course, such journeys have been done by electric vehicles for a very long time - in the days when everyone got milk delivered daily, milk floats were battery powered and did exactly that kind of journey - spend the day on a predictable milk round delivering milk and then get charged overnight.

[Millennie Al]

Swapping batteries instead of charging them would work too, especially if manufacturers limited themselves to a few standard models (lol). Probably even quicker than pumping a tank full of fuel.

Given the value of a battery pack, how do you resolve the inevitable arguments over why one is damaged - was that before it got swapped or after? And given that batteries wear out, how do you prevent unscrupulous drivers from swapping a worn-out or defective battery for a relatively new one? Some people would probably pull the same trick that dishonest battery suppliers have been found to do - pretend that a battery was much higher spec than it is. Only after you try charging it do you find that it won't hold the charge.

[Grumble]

Swapping batteries instead of charging them would work too, especially if manufacturers limited themselves to a few standard models (lol). Probably even quicker than pumping a tank full of fuel.

Given the value of a battery pack, how do you resolve the inevitable arguments over why one is damaged - was that before it got swapped or after? And given that batteries wear out, how do you prevent unscrupulous drivers from swapping a worn-out or defective battery for a relatively new one? Some people would probably pull the same trick that dishonest battery suppliers have been found to do - pretend that a battery was much higher spec than it is. Only after you try charging it do you find that it won't hold the charge.

There are battery swapping cars in China right now. The battery is guaranteed by the manufacturer.

[Grumble]

https://youtu.be/hTsrDpsYHrw
Battery swapping Nio

[bjn]

https://youtu.be/hTsrDpsYHrw
Battery swapping Nio

The Model S had a rapid swap battery for a while, they stopped doing it because it wasn't done that much in practice, added cost to the cars, cost more to implement and the high powered rapid chargers could put enough charge on a car fast enough to deal with most use cases.

[bjn]

As long as you have enough range for a day’s travel and can therefore charge overnight batteries are clear winners over fuel cells - and the driver spends less time doing that than they would do refuelling with diesel. Multi-day journeys, such as by ships, are where fuel cells win out.

Provided there is a decent charging network, the only advantage that a renewables derived liquid/gas fuel vehicle has over a battery vehicle is the ability to refuel rapidly. If you absolutely have to be moving again in a matter of minutes after doing a number of hours driving, great. Beyond that I can't think of a single thing where they win, they are way more inefficient to generate, need a whole new distribution network and are more complex and dangerous to handle.

So for most miles driven by most vehicles, batteries win. I'd trade never having to fill up my car on a regular basis with the odd longer stop at a motorway services for the extended trips I do a few times a year.

The devil in the detail is the "decent charging network", this requires ubiquitous chargers, at home, on the street, at work, at hotels, at Sainsbury's, at church etc.... The degree of ubiquity can be low to start with, but as more BEVs roll out more will be needed. It's also one of Tesla's USPs, they recognised that if charging was a pain, they wouldn't sell any cars, so they spent a tonne of money on their super charger network. They also maintain them better than other networks.

Note that this also goes for fuel cell vehicles, they need a decent refuelling network for them as well, at the moment there is none. They are also more painful to roll out, a H2 or ammonia pump along with tanks, generation systems, distribution systems is going to cost one helluva lot more than a BEV charger attached to the existing grid.

[Grumble]

As long as you have enough range for a day’s travel and can therefore charge overnight batteries are clear winners over fuel cells - and the driver spends less time doing that than they would do refuelling with diesel. Multi-day journeys, such as by ships, are where fuel cells win out.

Provided there is a decent charging network, the only advantage that a renewables derived liquid/gas fuel vehicle has over a battery vehicle is the ability to refuel rapidly. If you absolutely have to be moving again in a matter of minutes after doing a number of hours driving, great. Beyond that I can't think of a single thing where they win, they are way more inefficient to generate, need a whole new distribution network and are more complex and dangerous to handle.

So for most miles driven by most vehicles, batteries win. I'd trade never having to fill up my car on a regular basis with the odd longer stop at a motorway services for the extended trips I do a few times a year.

The devil in the detail is the "decent charging network", this requires ubiquitous chargers, at home, on the street, at work, at hotels, at Sainsbury's, at church etc.... The degree of ubiquity can be low to start with, but as more BEVs roll out more will be needed. It's also one of Tesla's USPs, they recognised that if charging was a pain, they wouldn't sell any cars, so they spent a tonne of money on their super charger network. They also maintain them better than other networks.

Note that this also goes for fuel cell vehicles, they need a decent refuelling network for them as well, at the moment there is none. They are also more painful to roll out, a H2 or ammonia pump along with tanks, generation systems, distribution systems is going to cost one helluva lot more than a BEV charger attached to the existing grid.

Having worked somewhere that had tanks of ammonia, if a seal goes you don’t want to be anywhere near the f.cker.