Scrutable

bjn wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:48 am

There was a prototype camper van that a Dutch university put together that could charge its batteries from solar panels on the roof. It drove from the Netherlands to the South of Spain on solar power.

No doubt it could. But it might take some time. Especially since I would prefer to go to southern Spain in the less bright half of the year.

It was a proof of concept.

You would cover some proportion of annual miles in a vehicle with a few square meters of solar panels on the roof. Whether that’s the best use of the solar panels or the money is the pertinent question.

Given sufficiently cheap solar panels it might be a thing. Something like perovskite panels, which in theory should be much cheaper, but are less durable than silicon cells, might be useful. Cars get junked well before a static solar panel does.

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:30 pm

Pointless range. I'd rather get 200 miles delivered from a 10 minute recharge and carry half the battery.

Far from pointless. Speed limit in much of Europe is 130km. 1,000 km is less than 8 hours of driving.
Knowing you could get that far without a charge is a great comfort and kills all idea of range anxiety.

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:48 pm

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:30 pm

Pointless range. I'd rather get 200 miles delivered from a 10 minute recharge and carry half the battery.

Far from pointless. Speed limit in much of Europe is 130km. 1,000 km is less than 8 hours of driving.
Knowing you could get that far without a charge is a great comfort and kills all idea of range anxiety.

It's weekend away somewhere out of the way range. There and back without having to think about whether you can put it on charge when you get there.

Martin Y wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:16 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:48 pm

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:30 pm

Pointless range. I'd rather get 200 miles delivered from a 10 minute recharge and carry half the battery.

Far from pointless. Speed limit in much of Europe is 130km. 1,000 km is less than 8 hours of driving.
Knowing you could get that far without a charge is a great comfort and kills all idea of range anxiety.

It's weekend away somewhere out of the way range. There and back without having to think about whether you can put it on charge when you get there.

True, but in reality plugging in an ev at an out of the way destination might be more convenient than trying to find the nearest petrol station.

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:48 pm

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:30 pm

Pointless range. I'd rather get 200 miles delivered from a 10 minute recharge and carry half the battery.

Far from pointless. Speed limit in much of Europe is 130km. 1,000 km is less than 8 hours of driving.
Knowing you could get that far without a charge is a great comfort and kills all idea of range anxiety.

I assume that lpm knows what she might need or want. I'd buy a shorter range and quicker charge one too. I just wouldn't assume that is the right choice for everyone. There's plenty of jobs that can require many hours of driving a car in a day for starters.

I think something in the middle would probably end up being common. I know plenty of USians who regularly drive 8 -10 hours in a day. Not every day, but a few times a year to see family and the like. I could see a market for this in the hire car world. You'd own a short range-fast charge one for day to day, but hire a long range-slow charge one when you go long range*.


*You should note that many of these people who do occasional long distance hire a car to do it anyway, mostly because they don't want to put those miles on their own car. And I am assuming that these are the choices and trade offs.

Ooh, good quiz question.

Is there any car-accessible place in Europe that has no mains electricity within, say, 25 km?

Obviously a few islands. The occasional mountain pass? Up in the Arctic circle? Some forest in Romania or somewhere?

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:54 pm

Ooh, good quiz question.

Is there any car-accessible place in Europe that has no mains electricity within, say, 25 km?

Obviously a few islands. The occasional mountain pass? Up in the Arctic circle? Some forest in Romania or somewhere?

The answer may depend on if you mean by "no mains electricity" or "no publicly accessible mains electricity with significant spare capacity".

Depends where you're staying. Plenty of campsites don't have charging infrastructure, for instance.

But yeah, the US is also a big market and I wouldn't want to worry about running out of juice in the hundreds of miles of wilderness between towns either.

Once BEVs start taking off, though, I expect some silicon valley venture capital types will do an uber, ploughing billions of dollars into a loss-making expansion to crowd out competitors. They'll have outlets everywhere.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:11 pm

Once BEVs start taking off, though, I expect some silicon valley venture capital types will do an uber, ploughing billions of dollars into a loss-making expansion to crowd out competitors. They'll have outlets everywhere.

Until they are bought out by oil companies.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:11 pm

Depends where you're staying. Plenty of campsites don't have charging infrastructure, for instance.

But yeah, the US is also a big market and I wouldn't want to worry about running out of juice in the hundreds of miles of wilderness between towns either.

Once BEVs start taking off, though, I expect some silicon valley venture capital types will do an uber, ploughing billions of dollars into a loss-making expansion to crowd out competitors. They'll have outlets everywhere.

Once they start? 25% of car sales in the U.K. in December were BEV.

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:11 pm

Once BEVs start taking off, though, I expect some silicon valley venture capital types will do an uber, ploughing billions of dollars into a loss-making expansion to crowd out competitors. They'll have outlets everywhere.

Until they are bought out by oil companies.

Would be a good way for them to survive the climate bubble (and a lot of them deal in other fossil fuels they could push for the leccy generation).

Grumble wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:25 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:11 pm

Depends where you're staying. Plenty of campsites don't have charging infrastructure, for instance.

But yeah, the US is also a big market and I wouldn't want to worry about running out of juice in the hundreds of miles of wilderness between towns either.

Once BEVs start taking off, though, I expect some silicon valley venture capital types will do an uber, ploughing billions of dollars into a loss-making expansion to crowd out competitors. They'll have outlets everywhere.

Once they start? 25% of car sales in the U.K. in December were BEV.

New sales, presumably. Most cars on the road are a few years old so they're still in the minority.

But they're certainly flapping their wings hard and will take off soon.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:43 pm

dyqik wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:36 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:11 pm

Once BEVs start taking off, though, I expect some silicon valley venture capital types will do an uber, ploughing billions of dollars into a loss-making expansion to crowd out competitors. They'll have outlets everywhere.

Until they are bought out by oil companies.

Would be a good way for them to survive the climate bubble (and a lot of them deal in other fossil fuels they could push for the leccy generation).

That was 99% cynicism.

Some are putting weight behind hydrogen as a fuel. Because they are cracking it from methane.

Which they promise will have carbon capture and storage real soon now, honest.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:11 pm

But yeah, the US is also a big market and I wouldn't want to worry about running out of juice in the hundreds of miles of wilderness between towns either.

Not such a big market, but the US is positively packed compared to some of the places in Oz. The highway between Perth and Adelaide has roadhouses every ~200 km, and that's a populated road. Drive up the top end and you are expected to check in with local police at each stop to let them know you've made it through that road section. You also drive with plenty of water and food, just in case.

And most people never drive those very remote roads. I live in Australia for decades and never did.

Thing about energy storage technologies

I’m not sure why they say Li-ion batteries can only store electricity ‘for a few hours’ - this is obviously not true, but I assume they mean that battery installations are only considered viable for a few hours’ worth of generation.

nekomatic wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:29 am

Thing about energy storage technologies

I’m not sure why they say Li-ion batteries can only store electricity ‘for a few hours’ - this is obviously not true, but I assume they mean that battery installations are only considered viable for a few hours’ worth of generation.

Their capacity is measured in hours - as in they could be expected to supply for a few hours at most.

So it’s meant to be read as ‘store [enough] electricity for a few hours’. Fair enough.

monkey wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:38 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:48 pm

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:30 pm

Pointless range. I'd rather get 200 miles delivered from a 10 minute recharge and carry half the battery.

Far from pointless. Speed limit in much of Europe is 130km. 1,000 km is less than 8 hours of driving.
Knowing you could get that far without a charge is a great comfort and kills all idea of range anxiety.

I assume that lpm knows what she might need or want. I'd buy a shorter range and quicker charge one too. I just wouldn't assume that is the right choice for everyone. There's plenty of jobs that can require many hours of driving a car in a day for starters.

I think something in the middle would probably end up being common. I know plenty of USians who regularly drive 8 -10 hours in a day. Not every day, but a few times a year to see family and the like. I could see a market for this in the hire car world. You'd own a short range-fast charge one for day to day, but hire a long range-slow charge one when you go long range*.


*You should note that many of these people who do occasional long distance hire a car to do it anyway, mostly because they don't want to put those miles on their own car. And I am assuming that these are the choices and trade offs.

Interesting. I have never heard of any car owner hiring a car to do long-range driving. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that among the scores of colleagues I have who regularly (at least a couple of times a year, and often more) drive hundreds, even thousands, of miles with their nuclear family to see their extended family in their home countries, not one of them has ever mentioned hiring a car to do so (and we do have the sort of boring middle-aged conversations where that would crop up).
Loads of people in Europe love to load up the car and drive off somewhere for a camping or hiking or skiing holiday, and that entails a drive of a day or two. Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Northern France to Italy, Spain, Croatia, Southern France is in the 700 to 2k km range. For that a rang of 1k km means you can do a day's driving then, if your destination is more than a day away, charge the car overnight wherever you're staying en route & then drive another day.
Obviously nobody *should* drive more than 4 hours without stopping, but when has should ever had anything to do with actual behaviour? Also, if you have 2 adults, you can do 4 hour shifts anyway.

lpm wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:54 pm

Ooh, good quiz question.

Is there any car-accessible place in Europe that has no mains electricity within, say, 25 km?

Obviously a few islands. The occasional mountain pass? Up in the Arctic circle? Some forest in Romania or somewhere?

Who wants to get to their destination, then have to drive 25km to sit around for half an hour while the rest of the family is having fun? That's an hour out of your day gone. That sort of bollocks would push people to opt away from batteries.
There either has to be lots of fast-charging infrastructure on every A-road and motorway & slow-charging at all reasonable destinations, or cars with long enough ranges to be able to have less infrastructure.

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:32 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:38 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:48 pm

Far from pointless. Speed limit in much of Europe is 130km. 1,000 km is less than 8 hours of driving.
Knowing you could get that far without a charge is a great comfort and kills all idea of range anxiety.

I assume that lpm knows what she might need or want. I'd buy a shorter range and quicker charge one too. I just wouldn't assume that is the right choice for everyone. There's plenty of jobs that can require many hours of driving a car in a day for starters.

I think something in the middle would probably end up being common. I know plenty of USians who regularly drive 8 -10 hours in a day. Not every day, but a few times a year to see family and the like. I could see a market for this in the hire car world. You'd own a short range-fast charge one for day to day, but hire a long range-slow charge one when you go long range*.


*You should note that many of these people who do occasional long distance hire a car to do it anyway, mostly because they don't want to put those miles on their own car. And I am assuming that these are the choices and trade offs.

Interesting. I have never heard of any car owner hiring a car to do long-range driving. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that among the scores of colleagues I have who regularly (at least a couple of times a year, and often more) drive hundreds, even thousands, of miles with their nuclear family to see their extended family in their home countries, not one of them has ever mentioned hiring a car to do so (and we do have the sort of boring middle-aged conversations where that would crop up).

It's not exclusively 'hire a car for a long journey', but it's something I've heard from several people. And putting the miles on might not be the only factor, for example, if you normally drive a truck or an SUV, it might be more economical to hire something with better mileage for the long journey.

Hiring cars does seem to be a lot cheaper here than in the UK too (don't know about Europe). Especially if you can use your own insurance and leave it in the same state you picked it up from.

monkey wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:55 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:32 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:38 pm

I assume that lpm knows what she might need or want. I'd buy a shorter range and quicker charge one too. I just wouldn't assume that is the right choice for everyone. There's plenty of jobs that can require many hours of driving a car in a day for starters.

I think something in the middle would probably end up being common. I know plenty of USians who regularly drive 8 -10 hours in a day. Not every day, but a few times a year to see family and the like. I could see a market for this in the hire car world. You'd own a short range-fast charge one for day to day, but hire a long range-slow charge one when you go long range*.


*You should note that many of these people who do occasional long distance hire a car to do it anyway, mostly because they don't want to put those miles on their own car. And I am assuming that these are the choices and trade offs.

Interesting. I have never heard of any car owner hiring a car to do long-range driving. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that among the scores of colleagues I have who regularly (at least a couple of times a year, and often more) drive hundreds, even thousands, of miles with their nuclear family to see their extended family in their home countries, not one of them has ever mentioned hiring a car to do so (and we do have the sort of boring middle-aged conversations where that would crop up).

It's not exclusively 'hire a car for a long journey', but it's something I've heard from several people. And putting the miles on might not be the only factor, for example, if you normally drive a truck or an SUV, it might be more economical to hire something with better mileage for the long journey.

Hiring cars does seem to be a lot cheaper here than in the UK too (don't know about Europe). Especially if you can use your own insurance and leave it in the same state you picked it up from.

Oh yeah, if someone is a despicable c.nt who drives a cuntmobile, then i can get why they would hire a normal person's car for long journeys. You could save money on the petrol that way and the people in the place you're going to wouldn't know you're a c.nt until you start talking.
Maybe it's just that I don't know anyone who would drive such a sh.tty car that tells the world 'i am a c.nt. i can't drive & i know it, so i'm driving a car that will kill the planet faster than others so that when i inevitably crash, at least i'll kill the other person rather than myself'.

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:17 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:55 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:32 pm

Interesting. I have never heard of any car owner hiring a car to do long-range driving. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that among the scores of colleagues I have who regularly (at least a couple of times a year, and often more) drive hundreds, even thousands, of miles with their nuclear family to see their extended family in their home countries, not one of them has ever mentioned hiring a car to do so (and we do have the sort of boring middle-aged conversations where that would crop up).

It's not exclusively 'hire a car for a long journey', but it's something I've heard from several people. And putting the miles on might not be the only factor, for example, if you normally drive a truck or an SUV, it might be more economical to hire something with better mileage for the long journey.

Hiring cars does seem to be a lot cheaper here than in the UK too (don't know about Europe). Especially if you can use your own insurance and leave it in the same state you picked it up from.

Oh yeah, if someone is a despicable c.nt who drives a cuntmobile, then i can get why they would hire a normal person's car for long journeys. You could save money on the petrol that way and the people in the place you're going to wouldn't know you're a c.nt until you start talking.
Maybe it's just that I don't know anyone who would drive such a sh.tty car that tells the world 'i am a c.nt. i can't drive & i know it, so i'm driving a car that will kill the planet faster than others so that when i inevitably crash, at least i'll kill the other person rather than myself'.

You'd hate it here.