The Death Of Fossil Fuels

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EACLucifer
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by EACLucifer » Thu May 07, 2020 10:10 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:03 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:41 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:10 pm
Would converting motorsports to biofuels be easier than to electric or hydrogen?
Indycar converted back in 2007.
That's very interesting (I know nothing about motorsports, nor motors). The wiki page on Indycar says that methanol was a standard fuel since the 1960s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndyCar_Series#Fuel

So is it the case that motorsports' reliance on fossil fuels (presumably petrol with some additives) is more a case of inertia than outright necessity?
No. It's because races are either regulated to use vehicles that are just tuned up road vehicles, for a whole bunch of reasons (eg various motorcycle races) or it's desirable to try and develop tech that can later be used in ordinary vehicles.

If we switched to EVs, we'd probably see racing switch to EVs as well, however, battery electric vehicles are absolutely not ready to replace the existing internal combustion fleet across the board, and won't be without major advances, or a radical shift away from road transport for many applications.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by shpalman » Thu May 07, 2020 10:26 am

Formula E does actually exist.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu May 07, 2020 1:39 pm

shpalman wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:26 am
Formula E does actually exist.
Yes, and so does MotoE, and the TT Zero. Formula E runs at much slower speeds around a much shorter track than Formula 1. The TT Zero is one lap of the Mountain Course and MotoE runs on the same tracks as MotoGP but for only 6 laps instead of 20. In recent years most of the actual developments from motorsports that have gone into road cars have been run at 24h Le Mans or similar. Electric cars and bikes simply couldn’t run a 24h race as things stand. The Pikes Peak record is held by an electric car too.

I’m not pooh-poohing electric motorsports, I think they will drive development and already are - racing improves the breed as the saying goes, but it’s hard to see the point at which electric cars or bikes will be able compete in endurance events for example.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by lpm » Thu May 07, 2020 2:46 pm

Surely a shorter race is better for viewers? Less of the tedious bit of cars going round in circles.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu May 07, 2020 3:07 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 2:46 pm
Surely a shorter race is better for viewers? Less of the tedious bit of cars going round in circles.
At least US racing has a large number of crashes and safety cars, to make lots of short races out of a long one. Which makes up for the fact that the tracks literally are oval.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu May 07, 2020 3:08 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:39 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:26 am
Formula E does actually exist.
Yes, and so does MotoE, and the TT Zero. Formula E runs at much slower speeds around a much shorter track than Formula 1. The TT Zero is one lap of the Mountain Course and MotoE runs on the same tracks as MotoGP but for only 6 laps instead of 20. In recent years most of the actual developments from motorsports that have gone into road cars have been run at 24h Le Mans or similar. Electric cars and bikes simply couldn’t run a 24h race as things stand. The Pikes Peak record is held by an electric car too.

I’m not pooh-poohing electric motorsports, I think they will drive development and already are - racing improves the breed as the saying goes, but it’s hard to see the point at which electric cars or bikes will be able compete in endurance events for example.
Rallying could probably go electric without too many changes - the timed stages aren't usually that long, and they could recharge before the interminable between timed stages drives.

ETA: it looks like it might be happening. Or at least it would be if it weren't for CoVID-19. https://thedriven.io/2019/08/23/evs-bre ... s-in-2020/

And an electric car completed the Paris-Dakar in 2017. (actually in South America) https://oekonews.at/?mdoc_id=1112013

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Thu May 07, 2020 3:12 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:08 pm
Grumble wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:39 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:26 am
Formula E does actually exist.
Yes, and so does MotoE, and the TT Zero. Formula E runs at much slower speeds around a much shorter track than Formula 1. The TT Zero is one lap of the Mountain Course and MotoE runs on the same tracks as MotoGP but for only 6 laps instead of 20. In recent years most of the actual developments from motorsports that have gone into road cars have been run at 24h Le Mans or similar. Electric cars and bikes simply couldn’t run a 24h race as things stand. The Pikes Peak record is held by an electric car too.

I’m not pooh-poohing electric motorsports, I think they will drive development and already are - racing improves the breed as the saying goes, but it’s hard to see the point at which electric cars or bikes will be able compete in endurance events for example.
Rallying could probably go electric without too many changes - the timed stages aren't usually that long, and they could recharge before the interminable between timed stages drives.

ETA: it looks like it might be happening. Or at least it would be if it weren't for CoVID-19. https://thedriven.io/2019/08/23/evs-bre ... s-in-2020/
And at le mans they have to refuel and switch drivers and the like. With improved range, the day can't be too far off when electric with pallets of easily exchangeable batteries are used and to refuel, you just unplug, remove the batteries, slip in the new ones and plug in the array.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by plebian » Thu May 07, 2020 3:13 pm

Grumble wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:39 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:26 am
Formula E does actually exist.
Yes, and so does MotoE, and the TT Zero. Formula E runs at much slower speeds around a much shorter track than Formula 1. The TT Zero is one lap of the Mountain Course and MotoE runs on the same tracks as MotoGP but for only 6 laps instead of 20. In recent years most of the actual developments from motorsports that have gone into road cars have been run at 24h Le Mans or similar. Electric cars and bikes simply couldn’t run a 24h race as things stand. The Pikes Peak record is held by an electric car too.

I’m not pooh-poohing electric motorsports, I think they will drive development and already are - racing improves the breed as the saying goes, but it’s hard to see the point at which electric cars or bikes will be able compete in endurance events for example.
I'm sure replaceable battery modules aren't the beyond the wit of racing engineers.

Having a quick read, cars stop for refueling ever 13 laps or 177km (with a fuel efficiency of around 8mpg!). A battery module that could provide sufficient power for this at race accelerations is already in existence. It's just a question of making it removable in a car.

With a custom supercharger you could probably recharge the battery before the next stop or have more than 2 ready charged.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by tom p » Thu May 07, 2020 3:15 pm

fools seldom differ

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Thu May 07, 2020 4:38 pm

plebian wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:13 pm
Grumble wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:39 pm
shpalman wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:26 am
Formula E does actually exist.
Yes, and so does MotoE, and the TT Zero. Formula E runs at much slower speeds around a much shorter track than Formula 1. The TT Zero is one lap of the Mountain Course and MotoE runs on the same tracks as MotoGP but for only 6 laps instead of 20. In recent years most of the actual developments from motorsports that have gone into road cars have been run at 24h Le Mans or similar. Electric cars and bikes simply couldn’t run a 24h race as things stand. The Pikes Peak record is held by an electric car too.

I’m not pooh-poohing electric motorsports, I think they will drive development and already are - racing improves the breed as the saying goes, but it’s hard to see the point at which electric cars or bikes will be able compete in endurance events for example.
I'm sure replaceable battery modules aren't the beyond the wit of racing engineers.

Having a quick read, cars stop for refueling ever 13 laps or 177km (with a fuel efficiency of around 8mpg!). A battery module that could provide sufficient power for this at race accelerations is already in existence. It's just a question of making it removable in a car.

With a custom supercharger you could probably recharge the battery before the next stop or have more than 2 ready charged.
Tesla had removable batteries on early versions of their Model S. So the tech is there. Turned out it was more hassle than it was worth for normal cars.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Thu May 07, 2020 4:47 pm

bjn wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:38 pm
plebian wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:13 pm
Grumble wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:39 pm


Yes, and so does MotoE, and the TT Zero. Formula E runs at much slower speeds around a much shorter track than Formula 1. The TT Zero is one lap of the Mountain Course and MotoE runs on the same tracks as MotoGP but for only 6 laps instead of 20. In recent years most of the actual developments from motorsports that have gone into road cars have been run at 24h Le Mans or similar. Electric cars and bikes simply couldn’t run a 24h race as things stand. The Pikes Peak record is held by an electric car too.

I’m not pooh-poohing electric motorsports, I think they will drive development and already are - racing improves the breed as the saying goes, but it’s hard to see the point at which electric cars or bikes will be able compete in endurance events for example.
I'm sure replaceable battery modules aren't the beyond the wit of racing engineers.

Having a quick read, cars stop for refueling ever 13 laps or 177km (with a fuel efficiency of around 8mpg!). A battery module that could provide sufficient power for this at race accelerations is already in existence. It's just a question of making it removable in a car.

With a custom supercharger you could probably recharge the battery before the next stop or have more than 2 ready charged.
Tesla had removable batteries on early versions of their Model S. So the tech is there. Turned out it was more hassle than it was worth for normal cars.
Which may well be why no-one's bothered for Le Mans - no marketing benefit to demonstrating it.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu May 07, 2020 9:29 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:10 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:03 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:41 pm


Indycar converted back in 2007.
That's very interesting (I know nothing about motorsports, nor motors). The wiki page on Indycar says that methanol was a standard fuel since the 1960s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndyCar_Series#Fuel

So is it the case that motorsports' reliance on fossil fuels (presumably petrol with some additives) is more a case of inertia than outright necessity?
No. It's because races are either regulated to use vehicles that are just tuned up road vehicles, for a whole bunch of reasons (eg various motorcycle races) or it's desirable to try and develop tech that can later be used in ordinary vehicles.

If we switched to EVs, we'd probably see racing switch to EVs as well, however, battery electric vehicles are absolutely not ready to replace the existing internal combustion fleet across the board, and won't be without major advances, or a radical shift away from road transport for many applications.
If the tech simply wasn't ready, I can't see racing organisers changing the rules on vehicles without adapting the races themselves.

Perhaps the sport would split, resulting in extra categories, eg we still have horse racing after the adoption of internal combustion engines for most transportation. A lot of horse events include things that cars can't do, like jumping.

So we could end up with some car sports running on biofuels doing things that EVs can't manage, perhaps including extreme endurance, and newer events doing stuff that they're better adapted for.
Born at 356.32 ppm CO2 #ShowYourStripes

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Thu May 07, 2020 10:46 pm

bjn wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:38 pm
plebian wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 3:13 pm
Grumble wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:39 pm


Yes, and so does MotoE, and the TT Zero. Formula E runs at much slower speeds around a much shorter track than Formula 1. The TT Zero is one lap of the Mountain Course and MotoE runs on the same tracks as MotoGP but for only 6 laps instead of 20. In recent years most of the actual developments from motorsports that have gone into road cars have been run at 24h Le Mans or similar. Electric cars and bikes simply couldn’t run a 24h race as things stand. The Pikes Peak record is held by an electric car too.

I’m not pooh-poohing electric motorsports, I think they will drive development and already are - racing improves the breed as the saying goes, but it’s hard to see the point at which electric cars or bikes will be able compete in endurance events for example.
I'm sure replaceable battery modules aren't the beyond the wit of racing engineers.

Having a quick read, cars stop for refueling ever 13 laps or 177km (with a fuel efficiency of around 8mpg!). A battery module that could provide sufficient power for this at race accelerations is already in existence. It's just a question of making it removable in a car.

With a custom supercharger you could probably recharge the battery before the next stop or have more than 2 ready charged.
Tesla had removable batteries on early versions of their Model S. So the tech is there. Turned out it was more hassle than it was worth for normal cars.
Panoz (who ran the first hybrid car at Le Mans) wanted to do a battery swapping electric car in garage 56. However I seem to remember someone on the old forum doing sums demonstrating that you would have to charge up a lorry load of batteries before you arrived because it would be hard to charge more than a few sufficiently in the time without having a dedicated substation to that garage. Panoz is dead now, so I doubt it will happen soon.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Imrael » Fri May 08, 2020 7:47 am

I think probably the VW's built for Pikes Peak are some of the most impressive Electric Motorsports vehicles.

Youtube of VW EV

I'm vaguely hoping for a more amateur/participant friendly electric formula to emerge. Motorsport is never exactlyi cheap but in my youth a lot of us participants were not super-rich or wizard engineers. Club/amateur races are mostly about 10 laps of a short circuit, so the battery endurance requirements are not that onerous.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by EACLucifer » Fri May 08, 2020 8:21 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 9:29 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:10 am
No. It's because races are either regulated to use vehicles that are just tuned up road vehicles, for a whole bunch of reasons (eg various motorcycle races) or it's desirable to try and develop tech that can later be used in ordinary vehicles.

If we switched to EVs, we'd probably see racing switch to EVs as well, however, battery electric vehicles are absolutely not ready to replace the existing internal combustion fleet across the board, and won't be without major advances, or a radical shift away from road transport for many applications.
If the tech simply wasn't ready, I can't see racing organisers changing the rules on vehicles without adapting the races themselves.

Perhaps the sport would split, resulting in extra categories, eg we still have horse racing after the adoption of internal combustion engines for most transportation. A lot of horse events include things that cars can't do, like jumping.

So we could end up with some car sports running on biofuels doing things that EVs can't manage, perhaps including extreme endurance, and newer events doing stuff that they're better adapted for.
I think you misread me, BOAF. My comment about BEVs not being ready to replace the IC fleet across the board refers to real world applications, not racing, hence my "or a radical shift away from road transport for many applications".

The problem with BEVs remains the weight of the powerpacks and the price, things that aren't a problem for luxury cars or urban buses, but are a problem for long range freight and passenger transport in rural areas.

Racing, however, is inherently arbitrary. I cannot think of a single race anywhere that doesn't place some limits on the vehicles. That means electric racing is viable, and it could be quite entertaining, if set up right; the factors that determine whether or not races are worth watching don't tend to be dependent on the use of one or other engine tech.

Hell, I just, while writing this post, thought of a fun format for a race that could work well for amateurs. Rather than one long race, it's a series of short ones. After a set number of laps, there's a break to change batteries, then another set number of laps. There are as many runs as there are competitors, with each competitor taking a different place in the grid each time, ie Racer A might start from pole-2-3-4-5-6-7-8, Racer B 8-pole-2-3-4-5-6-7-8.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Grumble » Fri May 08, 2020 8:25 am

Imrael wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:47 am
I think probably the VW's built for Pikes Peak are some of the most impressive Electric Motorsports vehicles.

Youtube of VW EV

I'm vaguely hoping for a more amateur/participant friendly electric formula to emerge. Motorsport is never exactlyi cheap but in my youth a lot of us participants were not super-rich or wizard engineers. Club/amateur races are mostly about 10 laps of a short circuit, so the battery endurance requirements are not that onerous.
Pikes Peak is obviously a unique case, it’s impossible to set a normal ICE to get an optimal air fuel mix all the way up, and it’s fairly short so it favours electric vehicles. But yes, the IDR is bonkers! Fantastic to see what can be done.
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by shpalman » Tue May 12, 2020 5:34 pm

molto tricky

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue May 12, 2020 7:18 pm

There was an article in the Washington Post the other day about the multi-billion dollar Rockefeller Fund that had been divesting itself of all its investments in fossil fuels and investing in renewable energy and has been doing fantastically well and out-performing expectations.

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by rockdoctor » Tue May 12, 2020 7:30 pm

Thinking about the battery swap in the pits; they would also have to do the usual tyre swap (which includes wheels so it can be done quickly). It’s quite possible that more than half of the mass of the car is being swapped out in a pit stop.
At what point are you entering a ‘Trigger’s broom’ situation and you might as well just get the driver to hop into a new, freshly charged car? Is that really so different?

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by dyqik » Tue May 12, 2020 9:03 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:18 pm
There was an article in the Washington Post the other day about the multi-billion dollar Rockefeller Fund that had been divesting itself of all its investments in fossil fuels and investing in renewable energy and has been doing fantastically well and out-performing expectations.
And now Republicans are trying to find a way to charge them with discrimination over it.

e.g. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22K2PU

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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Wed May 13, 2020 2:18 am

rockdoctor wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:30 pm
Thinking about the battery swap in the pits; they would also have to do the usual tyre swap (which includes wheels so it can be done quickly). It’s quite possible that more than half of the mass of the car is being swapped out in a pit stop.
At what point are you entering a ‘Trigger’s broom’ situation and you might as well just get the driver to hop into a new, freshly charged car? Is that really so different?
Which is what they do in Formula E (or at least used to be). When the drivers came into the pits they had a second car ready for them.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by basementer » Wed May 13, 2020 2:24 am

Martin_B wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:18 am
rockdoctor wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:30 pm
Thinking about the battery swap in the pits; they would also have to do the usual tyre swap (which includes wheels so it can be done quickly). It’s quite possible that more than half of the mass of the car is being swapped out in a pit stop.
At what point are you entering a ‘Trigger’s broom’ situation and you might as well just get the driver to hop into a new, freshly charged car? Is that really so different?
Which is what they do in Formula E (or at least used to be). When the drivers came into the pits they had a second car ready for them.
Yes, they stopped needing to do that a couple of seasons ago.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by Martin_B » Wed May 13, 2020 2:41 am

basementer wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:24 am
Martin_B wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:18 am
rockdoctor wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 7:30 pm
Thinking about the battery swap in the pits; they would also have to do the usual tyre swap (which includes wheels so it can be done quickly). It’s quite possible that more than half of the mass of the car is being swapped out in a pit stop.
At what point are you entering a ‘Trigger’s broom’ situation and you might as well just get the driver to hop into a new, freshly charged car? Is that really so different?
Which is what they do in Formula E (or at least used to be). When the drivers came into the pits they had a second car ready for them.
Yes, they stopped needing to do that a couple of seasons ago.
Shows how long since I last watched then, doesn't it! Watching Formula 1 is difficult enough over here, Formula E is close to impossible. If it's not V8 Supercars then it's un-Australian :roll:
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by basementer » Wed May 13, 2020 6:47 am

Martin_B wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:41 am
basementer wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:24 am
Martin_B wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:18 am

Which is what they do in Formula E (or at least used to be). When the drivers came into the pits they had a second car ready for them.
Yes, they stopped needing to do that a couple of seasons ago.
Shows how long since I last watched then, doesn't it! Watching Formula 1 is difficult enough over here, Formula E is close to impossible. If it's not V8 Supercars then it's un-Australian :roll:
I haven't seen any Formula 1 since oh, just realised I missed my anniversary, I immigrated eleven years ago yesterday.
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Re: The Death Of Fossil Fuels

Post by bjn » Wed May 13, 2020 8:33 am

Martin_B wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:41 am
basementer wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:24 am
Martin_B wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 2:18 am

Which is what they do in Formula E (or at least used to be). When the drivers came into the pits they had a second car ready for them.
Yes, they stopped needing to do that a couple of seasons ago.
Shows how long since I last watched then, doesn't it! Watching Formula 1 is difficult enough over here, Formula E is close to impossible. If it's not V8 Supercars then it's un-Australian :roll:
A suped up Holden Commodore does not count as a supercar.

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