Scrutable

Unfortunately but unsurprisingly the results show a massive partisan split in opinion.

What's weird is that the Heil is apparently endorsing the position taken by Labour voters. Interesting times.

Twitter thread from a SAGE subcommittee advisor on tonight's bin fire:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ReicherSteph ... 3212409857

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun May 24, 2020 4:46 pm

Unfortunately but unsurprisingly the results show a massive partisan split in opinion.

What's weird is that the Heil is apparently endorsing the position taken by Labour voters. Interesting times.

It was bad enough finding myself agreeing with Piers Morgan but the Mail? Must be the End Times.

There are rumours that the Mail wants Michael Gove in charge. I don't know where they started from, other than that one of their main columnists is married to him.

JQH wrote: ↑

Mon May 25, 2020 12:22 pm

It was bad enough finding myself agreeing with Piers Morgan but the Mail? Must be the End Times.

Is that their new name? The Daily End Times and the End Times on Sunday, I presume?

Millennie Al wrote: ↑

Tue May 26, 2020 1:31 am

JQH wrote: ↑

Mon May 25, 2020 12:22 pm

It was bad enough finding myself agreeing with Piers Morgan but the Mail? Must be the End Times.

Is that their new name? The Daily End Times and the End Times on Sunday, I presume?

The Sun is now A Red Giant.

The Mirror and Black Mirror have converged.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Mon May 25, 2020 12:31 pm

There are rumours that the Mail wants Michael Gove in charge. I don't know where they started from, other than that one of their main columnists is married to him.

We can refer to the Govid government if he does take over.

Almost hope it happens, just to see Johnson's little boy look when his new toy is taken away from him because he's broken it already.

If give gets pm his lips are liable to explode.

Coronavirus: Schools and workplaces could see 'local lockdowns' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52817832

How is that supposed to help? Isn’t it the very definition of closing the stable door once the horse has bolted?

TAFKAsoveda wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 12:52 pm

Coronavirus: Schools and workplaces could see 'local lockdowns' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52817832

How is that supposed to help? Isn’t it the very definition of closing the stable door once the horse has bolted?

There will be a moving unlockdown which will track Dom Cummings location. When he changes his location the lockdown will restart.

So - when this "track and trace" system is up and running - at any moment anyone could get a phone call telling them that they have been in "close contact" with someone who has tested positive for COVID-19 and told to self-isolate for 14 days.

Presumably, for privacy reasons you won't be told when the contact occurred - or who the contact was.

I assume this instruction to self-isolate will be backed up with legislation. But what happens when it's an error? And you know it's an error? E.g. you haven't been in contact with anyone for more than 2 weeks but you still get the call? Because a real contact got dates mixed up? Or someone annoyed at testing positive and being stuck at home decided to claim contact with someone else to cause problems for them?

bob sterman wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 8:02 pm

So - when this "track and trace" system is up and running - at any moment anyone could get a phone call telling them that they have been in "close contact" with someone who has tested positive for COVID-19 and told to self-isolate for 14 days.

Presumably, for privacy reasons you won't be told when the contact occurred - or who the contact was.

I assume this instruction to self-isolate will be backed up with legislation. But what happens when it's an error? And you know it's an error? E.g. you haven't been in contact with anyone for more than 2 weeks but you still get the call? Because a real contact got dates mixed up? Or someone annoyed at testing positive and being stuck at home decided to claim contact with someone else to cause problems for them?

I've no idea what (if any) contingencies are in place for that kind of thing, but it's certainly a lower-priority problem than the current situation of not having a track and trace system, which we've known for months is necessary to control the epidemic.

If someone phoned me out of the blue telling me to self-isolate, I'd ask how they got my phone number and also ask them to prove they're from the Track and Trace team.

This is where an app, which is tracing location could be used to verify contact reports. If you were never within a mile of them, there was no contact.

Letting a rush job app have access to your location data and more? That's a difficult question.

gosling wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm

If someone phoned me out of the blue telling me to self-isolate, I'd ask how they got my phone number and also ask them to prove they're from the Track and Trace team.

Well fine, but how else are they supposed to contact people, especially those without smartphones?

discovolante wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 pm

gosling wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm

If someone phoned me out of the blue telling me to self-isolate, I'd ask how they got my phone number and also ask them to prove they're from the Track and Trace team.

Well fine, but how else are they supposed to contact people, especially those without smartphones?

I don't know, but could easily be used for another phone scam

Occupational therapist friend is one of the clinicians involved in the team. She's just posted on FB to say that she hasn't had her login details or any training yet. It's almost like they're rushing it through to take the headlines away from another story.

plebian wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 9:47 pm

This is where an app, which is tracing location could be used to verify contact reports. If you were never within a mile of them, there was no contact.

Letting a rush job app have access to your location data and more? That's a difficult question.

Somewhere up-thread, someone described or linked to a description of an app structure that didn't need to collect the identity of phone owner or location info to work. All the weaknesses of the system were human.

And, No, any app doesn't address the problem of people (poss many older, more vulnerable) who don't have smart phones.

gosling wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 6:57 am

discovolante wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 pm

gosling wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm

If someone phoned me out of the blue telling me to self-isolate, I'd ask how they got my phone number and also ask them to prove they're from the Track and Trace team.

Well fine, but how else are they supposed to contact people, especially those without smartphones?

I don't know, but could easily be used for another phone scam

Occupational therapist friend is one of the clinicians involved in the team. She's just posted on FB to say that she hasn't had her login details or any training yet. It's almost like they're rushing it through to take the headlines away from another story.

Yeah you're right it could.

It's a shambles eh, I just saw an article today saying there's been a spike of cases in South Korea, which if it is 'despite' their testing and tracing doesn't bode well for us.

TAFKAsoveda wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 12:52 pm

Coronavirus: Schools and workplaces could see 'local lockdowns' https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52817832

How is that supposed to help? Isn’t it the very definition of closing the stable door once the horse has bolted?

I also thought we weren't going to get school based outbreaks because children don't catch it and if they do they don't spread it and if they do well they don't get very ill anyway?!

More details from my OT friend on her experience of the system

... they tried to test it on Monday, I was booked in for a mock trial. Took me 1hr 40mins to log in to the dummy trial system (leaving me 20 mins to actually test it), then it had a fault and there was no way to access even the dummy system. There was no way to raise a query or to get help. Then I got sent a feedback form so they could use the feedback to develop the system further.

I got an email declaring we’d get webinar training on the system and NHS Professionals said that all staff would get 2 days on the dummy system whilst they found their way around. A text this afternoon claimed there is now further training on the learning platform and suddenly some prat is standing at a podium declaring we’re all ready!!

I’ve not got a clue!

Lew Dolby wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 7:05 am

plebian wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 9:47 pm

This is where an app, which is tracing location could be used to verify contact reports. If you were never within a mile of them, there was no contact.

Letting a rush job app have access to your location data and more? That's a difficult question.

Somewhere up-thread, someone described or linked to a description of an app structure that didn't need to collect the identity of phone owner or location info to work. All the weaknesses of the system were human.

And, No, any app doesn't address the problem of people (poss many older, more vulnerable) who don't have smart phones.

Might have been me posting a video from 3blue1brown.

A phone sends out random gibberish by bluetooth. Any nearby phone will pick up some of that random gibberish. Any gibberish older than two weeks is deleted. The person who the first phone belongs to gets a positive test for the covids. Anyone whose phone still contains any gibberish which has been sent out by that person's phone can be considered exposed. Whether the checking is done centrally (your phone regularly sends a list of all the gibberish it has on it to a central database to see if any of it has come from the phone of someone exposed) or locally (your phone downloads a list of all the gibberish which has come from the phone of anyone exposed to see if any of it matches what the phone picked up) is a choice to be made by the app writer.

More fundamentally: it leads to serial isolations.

If you have a job where you meet people, you could be contacted time and again and asked to quarantine.

For example, if Parliament is reopened, MPs and civil servants and staff might have to continually disappear for their isolations, potentially a dozen times over the next year. We are still running too hot for contacts with infected Covidians to be rare.

This scheme works perfectly for me - working from home. But it requires others to "Do their duty" and stop working for 2 weeks at any time and quite possibly several times.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 pm

gosling wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm

If someone phoned me out of the blue telling me to self-isolate, I'd ask how they got my phone number and also ask them to prove they're from the Track and Trace team.

Well fine, but how else are they supposed to contact people, especially those without smartphones?

Give people a number to call back on that they can verify is the correct number before they call.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 8:13 am

discovolante wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 pm

gosling wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 pm

If someone phoned me out of the blue telling me to self-isolate, I'd ask how they got my phone number and also ask them to prove they're from the Track and Trace team.

Well fine, but how else are they supposed to contact people, especially those without smartphones?

Give people a number to call back on that they can verify is the correct number before they call.

Yes fine, that is what happened a lot when I worked for an equity release company, and I hope the gov has actually consulted some people with call centre experience for that kind of thing and others, ha. I was just a bit perplexed by what seemed to be gosling's tone which *to me*, at the time, came across as 'I will refuse to co-operate with this as I dont think they should be phoning me like that'. But Gosling has since replied and explained so it's all good, I think.

Actually giving people a number to call back on isn't foolproof unless it was actually displayed as a contact number on the government website.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 8:26 am

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu May 28, 2020 8:13 am

discovolante wrote: ↑

Wed May 27, 2020 10:01 pm

Well fine, but how else are they supposed to contact people, especially those without smartphones?

Give people a number to call back on that they can verify is the correct number before they call.

Actually giving people a number to call back on isn't foolproof unless it was actually displayed as a contact number on the government website.

That's what I meant when I said "that they can verify is the correct number". Running a bit slow today, so probably not being as clear as I ought to be.