Starmer

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Re: Starmer

Post by headshot » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:03 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:14 pm
The lib dems already died on this hill.
No, they died on a hill that wasn't quite PR...

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Re: Starmer

Post by sheldrake » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:04 pm

The electorate will not care about the distinctions between all of the theoretical alternative voting systems.

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Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:29 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:57 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:02 pm
nekomatic wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:47 am
Which has made a lot of people very cross indeed.
To be be fair, I think that cold be said of just about every motion.
heh

Problem with PR is it would f.ck Labour.
Problem with not PR is it f.cks the smaller parties who could otherwise form coalitions with Labour.
It would only sort of f.ck Labour. My bet is that it would cause a split into 2 parties, which might not be too bad (it would end much of the infighting, at least). The magnitude of fuckedness is whether it would do the equivalent for the Tories or not, which it might.

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Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:31 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:04 pm
The electorate will not care about the distinctions between all of the theoretical alternative voting systems.
The electorate seem to like the idea of PR (with a lot of don't knows) - clicky

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Re: Starmer

Post by sheldrake » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:38 pm

We had a referendum on it in 2011. Rejected by a landslide. Most people couldn't care less and think it's a weird distraction. Complete waste of political capital by the Lib Dems in coalition. The Tories let them have it as a negotiating chip knowing perfectly well what the result would be. Probably sniggering to each other in a public-schooly way.
Last edited by sheldrake on Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starmer

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:38 pm

No, we didn't.
They loved each other and believed they loved mankind, they fought each other and believed they fought the world.

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Re: Starmer

Post by sheldrake » Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:39 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:38 pm
No, we didn't.
You're doing that detail thing that normal people don't care about. They won't care.

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Re: Starmer

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:02 pm

I just want to be clear on something - this whole gish gallop, repeatedly claiming you didn't mean something because you wrote unclearly or dismissing people's replies to you out of hand, thing is pissing a lot of people off. Give it a rest.
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Re: Starmer

Post by sheldrake » Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:15 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:02 pm
dismissing people's replies to you out of hand, thing is pissing a lot of people off. Give it a rest.
Your own last reply to me wrote: No, we didn't.
Pot, meet Kettle.

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Re: Starmer

Post by lpm » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:26 pm

This Party Conference is an utter disaster.

Thank f.ck the petrol panic is distracting voters. Wasted opportunity though. Huge open goal with the Tories flapping helplessly and Labour instead concentrates on insulting itself.
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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:31 pm

lpm wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:26 pm
This Party Conference is an utter disaster.

Thank f.ck the petrol panic is distracting voters. Wasted opportunity though. Huge open goal with the Tories flapping helplessly and Labour instead concentrates on insulting itself.
Deliberate wrecking tactics from Momentum. Starmer is going to have to do a Kinnock. We all worried it would take a decade or more to turn them into a credible outfit, we’ve got our answer.

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Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:39 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:31 pm
lpm wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 5:26 pm
This Party Conference is an utter disaster.

Thank f.ck the petrol panic is distracting voters. Wasted opportunity though. Huge open goal with the Tories flapping helplessly and Labour instead concentrates on insulting itself.
Deliberate wrecking tactics from Momentum. Starmer is going to have to do a Kinnock. We all worried it would take a decade or more to turn them into a credible outfit, we’ve got our answer.
It was Starmer's leadership election rule changes that distracted from the policy announcements of the first days. There was always going to be infighting (because it's Labour), but it would have been a lot less noticeable without that.

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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:05 pm

That’s got nothing to do with this resignation.

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Re: Starmer

Post by sheldrake » Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:17 pm

Didn't Starmer himself campaign for a £15 minimum wage a couple of years ago? Maybe this is not a mendacious wrecking tactic but somebody sincere who has just found out that Starmer isn't.

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:22 pm

sheldrake wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:17 pm
Didn't Starmer himself campaign for a £15 minimum wage a couple of years ago? Maybe this is not a mendacious wrecking tactic but somebody sincere who has just found out that Starmer isn't.
He basically did, but not quite:
Sir Keir Starmer was “showing solidarity” with workers when he photographed at a protest backing a £15 minimum wage two years ago, Labour has claimed amid a growing row over the party’s low pay policy.

The Labour conference was thrown was disarray after Andy McDonald quit as shadow employment rights secretary in protest at being told to argue against a national minimum wage of £15 per hour.

A 2019 photo of Starmer campaigning next to McDonald’s workers fighting for £15 minimum wage has gone viral, as left-wingers accuse him of going back on previous support for the hike.

He was also filmed at the 2019 London protest saying: “I’m really pleased to be here this morning supporting the staff at McDonald’s, and they’re not asking for the Earth, they’re asking for the basics – £15 an hour.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 28332.html (The Indie site has cancer, but reader view on Firefox strips out all the crud.)

So he supported a campaign for that wage and described it as "basic", but AFAICT never said it should be the statutory minimum.

How much sincerity was involved in this apparent volte face is left as an exercise to the reader.
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Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:28 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:05 pm
That’s got nothing to do with this resignation.
Yes, there's distractions coming from both ends of the party. My point was blaming it *all* on the left is incorrect.

I'd be a lot happier if he was doing what he said he'd do in the leadership election.

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Re: Starmer

Post by sheldrake » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:31 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:22 pm
So he supported a campaign for that wage and described it as "basic", but AFAICT never said it should be the statutory minimum.

How much sincerity was involved in this apparent volte face is left as an exercise to the reader.
This sounds like exactly the kind of distinction a lawyer would be satisfied by, but then be hurt and surprised that a normal person thought they had been dishonest.

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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:03 pm

monkey wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:28 pm
plodder wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:05 pm
That’s got nothing to do with this resignation.
Yes, there's distractions coming from both ends of the party. My point was blaming it *all* on the left is incorrect.

I'd be a lot happier if he was doing what he said he'd do in the leadership election.
But the people who are moaning about the leadership election changes are the same people stitching him up about the £15 wage.

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:15 pm

The same person trying to make leadership election changes is the same person flip-flopping for about £15 an hour.
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Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:29 pm

plodder wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:03 pm
monkey wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:28 pm
plodder wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:05 pm
That’s got nothing to do with this resignation.
Yes, there's distractions coming from both ends of the party. My point was blaming it *all* on the left is incorrect.

I'd be a lot happier if he was doing what he said he'd do in the leadership election.
But the people who are moaning about the leadership election changes are the same people stitching him up about the £15 wage.
So? That doesn't mean that both sides aren't up to stupid. And I suspect the resignation was about more than the minimum wage too.

I want Starmer to do what he said he do - unite the party. That needs to happen for Labour to win. He seemed to have an OK idea of how to do that during the leadership election, and seeing as he won with a sizable chunk of his vote coming from the left - it felt like he could do it. But so far, he hasn't been doing what it said on the tin.

(Just in case: I am not arguing that the left are blameless when it comes to infighting, I'm both sidesing it)

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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:41 pm

I don't really agree, I think the left wingers are being enormously disruptive and are determined to wreck Starmer's leadership. They'd claim the centrists did this when Corbyn was in charge - from my perspective there's something in that but Corbyn's problems were mainly of his own making. But anyway, here we are. Neither side will win for ages, this is the lesson from the 1980's.

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Re: Starmer

Post by sheldrake » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:45 pm

I'm curious, how many people here would like the minimum wage to be £15?

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Re: Starmer

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:59 am

monkey wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:31 pm
The electorate seem to like the idea of PR (with a lot of don't knows) - clicky
PR covers many different systems, so it's not necessarily possible to know if you prefer "PR" to our system until you know which alternative is being proposed.

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:13 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:59 am
monkey wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:31 pm
The electorate seem to like the idea of PR (with a lot of don't knows) - clicky
PR covers many different systems, so it's not necessarily possible to know if you prefer "PR" to our system until you know which alternative is being proposed.
Not really. The alternative is FPTP, which is shitter than every major form of PR.
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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:55 am

Piece by celebrated filmmaker and long-standing Labour activist Ken Loach in the Graun today https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -ken-loach

Apparently the Starmerista camp is "uniting the party" by purging people who disagree with the leadership and blocking motions from the left. I suppose it's one approach, but it seems even less democratic than the primarying tactics Momentum were using to choose candidates.

Splitting the party in two is electorally very unwise, at least under the FPTP system the Starmeristas are defending. Labour will need all the votes they can get, so alienating the progressive part of their base (which will include a disproportionate number of their local activists) seems a bit daft.

Plus, if the leader isn't even confident to respond to disagreement from members of his own party, how is he going to take on more powerful opposition?

What a state.
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