Starmer

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nekomatic
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Re: Starmer

Post by nekomatic » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:10 am

Um. When he says ‘My crime? To have supported a group, recently proscribed, who oppose unjustified expulsions from the party’ he neglects to mention that the group was founded by people expelled from Labour for antisemitism and they oppose expulsions that took place on the grounds of antisemitism. I’m not going to pronounce on Loach myself but I can very easily find you a lot of people who feel he is an antisemite and the party is better off without him.
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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:29 am

Yeah, this is the sad thing. People who are convinced that they're the good guys are actually being the bad guys.

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:30 am

I did find it odd that he neglected to mention the group(s) in question. AFAICT the proscribed groups were Resist, Socialist Appeal, Labour in Exile Network and Labour Against the Witchhunt - which were the antisemitic ones?

But he also says this:
It was under the cloak of claiming to rid the party of antisemitism that Starmer and his New Labour advisers have abused the party rulebook to threaten and expel so many. Jewish Voice for Labour reports a purge of leftwing Jewish members, and claims that they are four times more likely to face “actioned complaints’” than non-Jewish members. Their own complaints of mistreatment within the party have gone unanswered. What an irony.
If true, it does seem to suggest that the (much-needed) crackdown on antisemitism is still happening a bit insistently.
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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:37 am

You know that People's Front for Judea joke? It's always been this way.

It's like this, but kind of worse in a way:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 528725.stm

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:38 am

That'd be successful election winner Neil Kinnock, widely considered one of the party's best-ever leaders?
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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:40 am

How did Tony Bliar crush the left?

As a 6yo I wasn't following labour party conferences so closely in those days.
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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:47 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:40 am
How did Tony Bliar crush the left?

As a 6yo I wasn't following labour party conferences so closely in those days.
It was because of the groundwork Kinnock did. Kinnock crushed the left got Militant out of the party to make them electable, nearly beat Thatcher (but just before the election did an enormously embarrassing campaign speech where he just looked like an utter dickhead), then the Sainted John Smith took over who would have walked it and been amazing but unfortunately he died, paving the way for Blair and his gang who inherited a party that was ready for government - they made it so slick they won landslide after landslide.

Smith was the best PM we never had - pragmatic, smart, capable.

eta Worth remembering that the major thorns in Kinnock's side - Foot, Benn etc are still feted as the "last true intellectuals" by the left. My reading is that they were sh.t-stirrers in exactly the same way as McDonnell is now, and they did far more harm than good.

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:52 am

Fair enough. I hope there's some slickness on the cards soon, because right now it seems dysfunctional and shambolic.
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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:56 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:52 am
Fair enough. I hope there's some slickness on the cards soon, because right now it seems dysfunctional and shambolic.
For sure, but it looks like people like McDonnell, McClusky etc need to be brought under control before that can happen. I don't really have Corbyn as a major problem, he doesn't have the get up and go.

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Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:58 am

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TOgB3Smvro

1:34 is where the toe-curling starts - by modern standards it's pretty tame but at the time flamboyance and chanting and stuff was seen as really sus.
Last edited by plodder on Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:00 pm

I wonder about an alternative strategy, of giving troublemakers their own fiefdoms. Like the way Biden gave Sanders the Budget Committee - he gets to work on something he's good at (climate change), without undermining the rest of the show.

That way, the lefties feel included and listened to, but damage is also limited. They'd be inside and hopefully mostly pissing out.

Maybe he's tried that and their red lines are too, well, red, I dunno. But it looks like he's trying to wave his willy around tbh.
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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:01 pm

plodder wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:58 am
Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TOgB3Smvro

1:34 is where the toe-curling starts.
Yeah, I've seen that before. I think you had to be there - I can't imagine changing my vote based on a naff speech when things are going well.
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Re: Starmer

Post by lpm » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:02 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:55 am
Piece by celebrated filmmaker and long-standing Labour activist Ken Loach in the Graun today https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -ken-loach
When you say "celebrated filmmaker and long-standing Labour activist Ken Loach", was it a typo and you meant to say "notorious excuser of anti-semitism, supporter of a rapist, and long-standing opponent of Labour who's run candidates against them and campaigned against them Ken Loach"?
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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:05 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:02 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:55 am
Piece by celebrated filmmaker and long-standing Labour activist Ken Loach in the Graun today https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -ken-loach
When you say "celebrated filmmaker and long-standing Labour activist Ken Loach", was it a typo and you meant to say "notorious excuser of anti-semitism, supporter of a rapist, and long-standing opponent of Labour who's run candidates against them and campaigned against them Ken Loach"?
Wasn't aware of the support for a rapist. Have been trying to find info on his excusing antisemitism.
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Re: Starmer

Post by nezumi » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:09 pm

lpm wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:02 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:55 am
Piece by celebrated filmmaker and long-standing Labour activist Ken Loach in the Graun today https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -ken-loach
When you say "celebrated filmmaker and long-standing Labour activist Ken Loach", was it a typo and you meant to say "notorious excuser of anti-semitism, supporter of a rapist, and long-standing opponent of Labour who's run candidates against them and campaigned against them Ken Loach"?
Probably he did, but it's not as snappy is it? :lol:
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Re: Starmer

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:17 pm

Some very good bits to Starmer's speech. Focusing on the important stuff. Some momentum c.nts heckling the bit where he talks about his mum dying, but you can't have everything.
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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:29 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:17 pm
Some very good bits to Starmer's speech. Focusing on the important stuff. Some momentum c.nts heckling the bit where he talks about his mum dying, but you can't have everything.
His attack on Johnson was good - refusing to take him seriously as an individual, but nevertheless highlighting the dangers of his approach and attitude.

Wishy-washy on the environment though. There will be "a Green New Deal", but what's going to be in it? He mentions retrofitting insulation and increasing domestic manufacturing of renewable tech, but those are very old ideas. Good ones, but as a single-issue voter I'm looking for more.
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Re: Starmer

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:32 pm

tbf old issues still have a lot of power because no one's done anything about them
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Re: Starmer

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:43 pm

£28bn of green investment each year, commitment for govt activity to have to be net zero, insulate every home (£6bn a year), clean air act, more UK renewable engineering and manufacturing - might not have significant detail but it's a speech not a policy paper. It's a good start, and better than the current government.
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Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:48 pm

Conference passed a motion that was more extensive too, but who knows how much of that will make it to a manifesto?

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:54 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:43 pm
£28bn of green investment each year, commitment for govt activity to have to be net zero, insulate every home (£6bn a year), clean air act, more UK renewable engineering and manufacturing - might not have significant detail but it's a speech not a policy paper. It's a good start, and better than the current government.
Ah, he's come back to the topic. Maybe I should wait for the full transcript before commenting ;)

Retrofitting insulation should certainly be a priority. Glad that's on the cards.

As for domestic manufacturing, it's a good way of selling a "Green New Deal" to economy-focused voters, but it's meh otherwise. The climate barely cares where turbines are made.

I had put aside The Road Ahead for a rainy day, expecting it to take a while to pick through details on environment policy. I needn't have worried, because it's pretty scant.

What's missing is e.g. anything at all on new legislation, or even enforcing existing legislation (e.g. the UK already has clean air standards, but routinely ignores them). How will Labour make polluters pay for pollution, or stop them polluting? How will local communities be empowered to make decisions about their local natural environment? How will they end City finance for fossil fuels? How will the UK's climate ambitions be mainstreamed in trade and the wider economy?

So I'm hoping to get a sense that they're at least thinking about joined-up, large scale ideas, rather than tech fetishism and business-as-usual with a green tinge.
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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:57 pm

monkey wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:48 pm
Conference passed a motion that was more extensive too, but who knows how much of that will make it to a manifesto?
That's the motion Starmer tried to get thrown out, no? Or were there several?
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Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:06 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:57 pm
monkey wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:48 pm
Conference passed a motion that was more extensive too, but who knows how much of that will make it to a manifesto?
That's the motion Starmer tried to get thrown out, no? Or were there several?
That was only one of several, but that motion made it to the composition meeting in the end.

It actually seems two motions were passed, one that's more explicitly socialist, and one that's a bit lighter on things like nationalisation that was backed by the GMB. Both can be read here - clicky. I am not sure how they choose between the two if they contradict.

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Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:17 pm

monkey wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:06 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:57 pm
monkey wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:48 pm
Conference passed a motion that was more extensive too, but who knows how much of that will make it to a manifesto?
That's the motion Starmer tried to get thrown out, no? Or were there several?
That was only one of several, but that motion made it to the composition meeting in the end.

It actually seems two motions were passed, one that's more explicitly socialist, and one that's a bit lighter on things like nationalisation that was backed by the GMB. Both can be read here - clicky. I am not sure how they choose between the two if they contradict.
Cheers. Bit worrying to see support for gas, and pie-in-the-sky "green gas", in the unions' version. But in general those are broadly sensible starting points, even if they're weirdly light on regulating the finance sector.
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Re: Starmer

Post by Martin_B » Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:17 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:13 am
Millennie Al wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:59 am
monkey wrote:
Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:31 pm
The electorate seem to like the idea of PR (with a lot of don't knows) - clicky
PR covers many different systems, so it's not necessarily possible to know if you prefer "PR" to our system until you know which alternative is being proposed.
Not really. The alternative is FPTP, which is shitter than every major form of PR.
Although in the most recent state election here in WA, which uses a form of PR, a Senator got elected with 98 votes. Every election system has weaknesses, too.
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