Starmer

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
El Pollo Diablo
After Pie
Posts: 1680
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:41 pm
Location: FBPE

Re: Starmer

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:27 pm

I think one problem for those on the left of labour is they went all-in on Corbyn as their lord and saviour, when he was always problematic. I'm sure there are plenty of us who, in our heart of hearts, actually quite like a lot of his policy positions, but other than that, he was a very poor leader with some dodgy friends, an inability to handle the media, bad communication skills and, curiously for a man with neraly 40 years in politics, is bad at politics.

If the hard lefties could just uncouple themselves from corbyn as their doyen, then they might be able to start bringing some wisdom to the fight. He's gone, lads. It ain't werf it.
Mike Patton wrote:"You overdo it sometimes. There I am, peeing on Axl Rose’s teleprompter." He looks rueful: "I didn’t really have to do that."

plodder
Dorkwood
Posts: 1279
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by plodder » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:29 pm

boaf, this isn’t some BBC balance thing, where you have the sensible people on one side and the nutters on the other, so the truth must be in the middle.

EACLucifer
Dorkwood
Posts: 1026
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Starmer

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:40 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:17 pm
So, no uniting the party for you then?
Sorry, I think the party is better without the holocaust deniers, people who nominated them to be candidates, people who protected them at a disciplinary level, and people on whose behalf this was done and by whose allies this was done. I'm picky like that.

So is the electorate. Stalinist scum like Milne and tyrannophiles like Abbot can f.ck entirely off, and the party will be more electable as a result and thus more likely to actually effect meaningful change in this country.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Light of Blast
Posts: 5241
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: nadir of brie

Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:50 pm

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:27 pm
I think one problem for those on the left of labour is they went all-in on Corbyn as their lord and saviour, when he was always problematic. I'm sure there are plenty of us who, in our heart of hearts, actually quite like a lot of his policy positions, but other than that, he was a very poor leader with some dodgy friends, an inability to handle the media, bad communication skills and, curiously for a man with neraly 40 years in politics, is bad at politics.

If the hard lefties could just uncouple themselves from corbyn as their doyen, then they might be able to start bringing some wisdom to the fight. He's gone, lads. It ain't werf it.
I agree with this.

Plodder, I'm not looking for balance. It's just that there has been talk of Starmer trying to unite the party, and clearly that's not going too well. Realistically, the Corbyn faction isn't going to throw their hands up and say "Ok, never mind about all that, we've changed our mind," which means that the options are try and play nice, expel them, try and push them to splinter off, or continue with a load of constant acrimonious argey-bargey. It would be lovely if they took the high road, but I don't see it happening unfortunately.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

User avatar
dyqik
Stummy Beige
Posts: 3423
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Starmer

Post by dyqik » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:52 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:50 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:27 pm
I think one problem for those on the left of labour is they went all-in on Corbyn as their lord and saviour, when he was always problematic. I'm sure there are plenty of us who, in our heart of hearts, actually quite like a lot of his policy positions, but other than that, he was a very poor leader with some dodgy friends, an inability to handle the media, bad communication skills and, curiously for a man with neraly 40 years in politics, is bad at politics.

If the hard lefties could just uncouple themselves from corbyn as their doyen, then they might be able to start bringing some wisdom to the fight. He's gone, lads. It ain't werf it.
I agree with this.

Plodder, I'm not looking for balance. It's just that there has been talk of Starmer trying to unite the party, and clearly that's not going too well. Realistically, the Corbyn faction isn't going to throw their hands up and say "Ok, never mind about all that, we've changed our mind," which means that the options are try and play nice, expel them, try and push them to splinter off, or continue with a load of constant acrimonious argey-bargey. It would be lovely if they took the high road, but I don't see it happening unfortunately.
What you seem to be expecting is equivalent to a Romney or McCain making peace with the Tea Party and Q Anon supporters in the GOP and coming out with a united party that is electable, diverse, anti-racist, and capable of stable responsible government.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Light of Blast
Posts: 5241
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: nadir of brie

Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:07 pm

dyqik wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:52 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:50 pm
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:27 pm
I think one problem for those on the left of labour is they went all-in on Corbyn as their lord and saviour, when he was always problematic. I'm sure there are plenty of us who, in our heart of hearts, actually quite like a lot of his policy positions, but other than that, he was a very poor leader with some dodgy friends, an inability to handle the media, bad communication skills and, curiously for a man with neraly 40 years in politics, is bad at politics.

If the hard lefties could just uncouple themselves from corbyn as their doyen, then they might be able to start bringing some wisdom to the fight. He's gone, lads. It ain't werf it.
I agree with this.

Plodder, I'm not looking for balance. It's just that there has been talk of Starmer trying to unite the party, and clearly that's not going too well. Realistically, the Corbyn faction isn't going to throw their hands up and say "Ok, never mind about all that, we've changed our mind," which means that the options are try and play nice, expel them, try and push them to splinter off, or continue with a load of constant acrimonious argey-bargey. It would be lovely if they took the high road, but I don't see it happening unfortunately.
What you seem to be expecting is equivalent to a Romney or McCain making peace with the Tea Party and Q Anon supporters in the GOP and coming out with a united party that is electable, diverse, anti-racist, and capable of stable responsible government.
I mean, if they said they were going to I'd probably judge them by their success in that matter.

But I'm not sure the comparison between "the Tea Party and Q Anon supporters" and Corbyn supporters is quite on the money anyway. Corbyn's lot were never anti-democratic in the same way the Tea Party goes in for voter suppression, don't subscribe to completely insane conspiracy theories about satanic paedophiles, don't promote actively sexist and racist policies, and so on. My impression is that the Corbyn crew were more diverse than the rest of Labour as well, certainly not less so.

The Tea Party and Q Anon are totally incompatible with democratic government, whereas the Corbyn-wing of the party - if they moved on from their figurehead and dealt with antisemitism properly - aren't particularly politically unusual in a European context.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

monkey
Snowbonk
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:17 pm

Well, I think the left need to give up on Corbyn too. At the moment they're not, and Corbyn is making it incredibly hard for them to do so, because he isn't just apologising and disappearing like he should. But that doesn't mean they need to give up of left policy like nationalising the railways and utilities, green new deal, etc. But the right need to accept that those sorts of policy are popular too, I've not seen much of that yet (that said, it's not been an ideal time for Starmer to announce big policy to set out a real alternative what with the Covids and only being on the job since April, so I'll give him some more time).


(EAC, As an aside Labour are about tied in the polls, about the same position they were 2017 t the end of 18/beginning of 19, which includes a long period of being 1 or 2 points ahead. They were also ahead while both Labour and the Tories were declining in support up Johnson being chosen as leader).

EACLucifer
Dorkwood
Posts: 1026
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Starmer

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:33 pm

Corbyn's hardcore supporters are rather fond of conspiracy theories, btw, including ones relating to Ukraine and Russia, and pro-Assad ones, and Corbyn himself supported a motion that praised denial of Srebenica.

There are some comparisons between Corbynism and Trumpism, to be frank;

There's a leader that can't reject the support of people who agree with him, even when they are obviously racist
There's a hardcore for whom the tolerance of a particular form of bigotry is a feature not a bug, because it makes it ok to engage in that hatred
There's a much wider group of soft supporters who think everything negative must be a smear because they assume he can't really be that bad

EACLucifer
Dorkwood
Posts: 1026
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Starmer

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:36 pm

monkey wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:17 pm
Well, I think the left need to give up on Corbyn too. At the moment they're not, and Corbyn is making it incredibly hard for them to do so, because he isn't just apologising and disappearing like he should. But that doesn't mean they need to give up of left policy like nationalising the railways and utilities, green new deal, etc. But the right need to accept that those sorts of policy are popular too, I've not seen much of that yet (that said, it's not been an ideal time for Starmer to announce big policy to set out a real alternative what with the Covids and only being on the job since April, so I'll give him some more time)
Yes. The issue isn't the left as a whole, it's the Corbynists and the single issue Israel obsessives. Starmer's best move here is to show a clean break with the individual Corbynites and utterly reject them, while still incorporating solid leftwing policies like those you mention. It puts those who might go either way in the position of having to choose between Corbyn cultism and a party espousing the policies they like, and brings in those who are receptive to left wing policy but were repulsed by Corbyn's many failings, which really weren't to do with sensible left wing domestic policy.

User avatar
jimbob
After Pie
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Starmer

Post by jimbob » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:44 pm

Anyone have any idea what supposedly "despicable" act Starmer did yesterday that riled the Corbynistas?
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
bjn
Dorkwood
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:58 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by bjn » Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:51 pm

jimbob wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:44 pm
Anyone have any idea what supposedly "despicable" act Starmer did yesterday that riled the Corbynistas?
The thing about supporting a deal if Johnson gets one? Because when the option is between completely f.cking your economy or just f.cking it quite substantially, you obviously don't attempt to limit the damage and must remain ideologically pure. Even if Corbyn did sweet FA in 2016 to stop BREXIT (which is a wonderful bit of history rewriting I've seen, somehow it's now all Starmer's fault).

User avatar
jimbob
After Pie
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Starmer

Post by jimbob » Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:06 pm

bjn wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:51 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:44 pm
Anyone have any idea what supposedly "despicable" act Starmer did yesterday that riled the Corbynistas?
The thing about supporting a deal if Johnson gets one? Because when the option is between completely f.cking your economy or just f.cking it quite substantially, you obviously don't attempt to limit the damage and must remain ideologically pure. Even if Corbyn did sweet FA in 2016 to stop BREXIT (which is a wonderful bit of history rewriting I've seen, somehow it's now all Starmer's fault).
That would figure.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

RobS
Gray Pubic
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 2:02 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by RobS » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:16 pm

jimbob wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:44 pm
Anyone have any idea what supposedly "despicable" act Starmer did yesterday that riled the Corbynistas?
Is it about all the CLP chairs who are getting suspended for bringing motions forward to ask for the re-instatament of the whip to Corbyn despite having been expressly told not to?

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Light of Blast
Posts: 5241
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: nadir of brie

Re: Starmer

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:27 am

Is he still around? Haven't heard him mentioned at all recently, and the last reference on the forum was over a month ago.

Still, I suppose there hasn't been much need for a strong, credible, media-savvy opposition recently because of how well everything's been going.
He has the grace of a swan, the wisdom of an owl, and the eye of an eagle—ladies and gentlemen, this man is for the birds!

User avatar
lpm
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2787
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by lpm » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:40 am

He's f.cking up and it's too depressing to think about.

Yesterday he claimed teachers could have been vaccinated without any impact on doses for the 1-9 groups. He's an idiot.
What ever happened to that Trump guy, you know, the one who was president for a bit?

User avatar
headshot
Snowbonk
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:40 am

Re: Starmer

Post by headshot » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:41 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:27 am
Is he still around? Haven't heard him mentioned at all recently, and the last reference on the forum was over a month ago.

Still, I suppose there hasn't been much need for a strong, credible, media-savvy opposition recently because of how well everything's been going.
Last week he gave an hour long speech and press conference that was broadcast live on national television and was widely reported on.

Some of his recent ideas and responses have left me scratching my head, but to say he hasn't been mentioned anywhere is odd...unless you mean only on the forum.

monkey
Snowbonk
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:39 pm

There was some stuff about flags a while back too.

User avatar
discovolante
After Pie
Posts: 2371
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by discovolante » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:44 pm

It's all a bit meh isn't it. I'd rather it wasn't obviously.
socialism is when the government does stuff

monkey
Snowbonk
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:24 pm

With all this about possibly opposing a corporation tax rise, and Anneliese Dodds' speech today, it seems that Labour are trying to set themselves up as the party of small business. That's Blue Labour stuff, which didn't really work for Miliband.

nezumi
Snowbonk
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:43 pm
Location: UK

Re: Starmer

Post by nezumi » Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:32 pm

I have to admit, I am not keen. I like support for small businesses, but I'd like that to come at the expense of big ones. I'd support corporation tax relief for businesses employing less than 50 people, paid for by a hike for businesses like Tesco*.

Starmer started off OK, but he, like Miliband, has had an open goal to aim at for months, and months, and months, and he's done sod all about it. *That* is what hacks me off about that strain of Labour. They don't have the courage of their convictions. Too much politick, no heart or trousers.


* I haven't thought it through more than that, I'm an "ideas" person ;) :P

User avatar
Fishnut
Catbabel
Posts: 880
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Starmer

Post by Fishnut » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:34 pm

nezumi wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:32 pm
Starmer started off OK, but he, like Miliband, has had an open goal to aim at for months, and months, and months, and he's done sod all about it. *That* is what hacks me off about that strain of Labour. They don't have the courage of their convictions. Too much politick, no heart or trousers.
So much this!

We have a Prime Minister who's allowed 122,000+ people to die of coronavirus and who's overseen a Brexit that, despite being so focused on the fishing industry, has managed to screw our fishers in quite a dramatic fashion, yet Labour seems incapable of mounting even an ineffective opposition. Starmer started off well, treating PMQs as a cross-examination, but it quickly became apparent that there was going to be no "you can't handle the truth!" moment. Johnson learned to ignore Starmer and that was that. I've got no clue what Labour stand for any more. It feels like they're trying to be bland and inoffensive when what we really need is a party that can speak for those who've been so let down by the Tories. Where's the anger, where's the opposition, where's the offering of an alternative vision for the country?

I know people say that the election is years away but if you can't capture people's attention now when the country is in the shittiest position it's been in since the end of WW2 how the f.ck are you going to capture them when things are (hopefully) getting better? And just because the election is a long time away that doesn't mean you get to give up and go home.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

Herainestold
Catbabel
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:23 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by Herainestold » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:53 pm

He makes Corbyn look better and better

User avatar
discovolante
After Pie
Posts: 2371
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by discovolante » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:24 pm

To be honest, despite what I've said, I think Starmer has been in a tricky position regarding the pandemic, openly attacking the captain of the ship who is supposed to be leading the country to safety when you can't physically take over steering the ship yourself isn't necessarily a good move (and apologies for the really awful metaphor and I know it doesn't quite work). But he has been really weak on some issues when he could have taken a stronger stand (Matt Hancock ffs), and where he does take a stand it's either a bit incomprehensible or kind of half hearted trailing along behind, like Andy Burnham's work to get better financial support which is er pretty f.cking important, both to mitigate the effects of lockdown and if you are claiming to be the party of small business. (ETA and David Lammy's call for the findings of his review to be implemented, which I mentioned last year. Perhaps Starmer is trying to avoid taking credit for other people's work???)

I mean I did say before that you can't win an election based on your performance at PMQs but I could be wrong yet I suppose.

Personally I think being the party of small business is fine, I feel that if the pandemic is more or less over in the next however long before the election one option open to Labour is to massively hammer the Tories on how they have treated workers and small business owners, and frame protection of the NHS, education etc as protection of the people that work in those institutions (dare I say, 'workers') rather than just talking about these things as abstract entities. It will probably partly depend on public mood but if you support e.g. nurses (just for an easy example) and can get support from them, surely you have both a decent national campaign and a local touch where people can relate to nurses they know or have been cared for by. You can use this to promote better employment rights and working conditions (and NOT just pay, god) as well as improving the institutions themselves for the benefit of the families that Starmer likes to talk about. I think unions are also going to get hammered which is bad news too and needs to be pushed back on.

But yeah he is a bit like Miliband optics wise in that he just seems a bit wooden and odd. And yet Miliband seems so much more comfortable now...hmm...*strokes chin*

And also I suppose it remains to be seen if Labour get their act together in time for the inevitable collapse of the SNP over the next few years.
socialism is when the government does stuff

User avatar
jdc
Hilda Ogden
Posts: 797
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:31 pm
Location: Your Mum
Contact:

Re: Starmer

Post by jdc » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:39 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:34 pm
Where's the anger, where's the opposition, where's the offering of an alternative vision for the country?
Individual footballers and DJs seem to have more impact than the official opposition at the moment.

monkey
Snowbonk
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Starmer

Post by monkey » Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:56 pm

discovolante wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:24 pm
Personally I think being the party of small business is fine...
Helping small business is good. They need it at the moment, it'll be popular too. My worry about that is that it's the start of a drift towards Blue Labour with their Fascisty sounding slogan of "Family, Faith and Flag". I do understand the motivation though, it's what most people assume that people in the "red wall" want, and might even be what the polling and focus groups* tell you. But if you go too far that way, it'll mean you end up having a flag waving contest with Boris f.cking Johnson, which you will lose, especially if your leader has next to no charisma**. Not to mention the surge of nationalism that would be encouraged.

Also, Labour are about to be outflanked by Sunak's budget, when he announces that he's stolen Corbyn/John McDonnell's fiscal policy next week. Even the left of the party doesn't seem to notice what's going on, they all seem to be getting ready to complain about Austerity 2.0 (when they're not too busy infighting).



*That thing about the flag I mentioned in a previous post was off of a leaked report based on focus groups. The Leadership claim it was just the results, rather than the strategy, I'm not sure they were believed by everyone.

**This isn't always a bad thing. Being able to focus on detail and analysis is what made Starmer a good shadow minister, but you do need someone with a bit of oomph to lead.

Post Reply