Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:01 am
Jewish Voice for Labour, though, do
describe themselves as "a network for Jewish members of the Labour Party" - I'm not sure where the idea comes from that they aren't Jewish enough. The founder was a Labour member since 1969, and also active in Jews for Justice for Palestinians (founded in 2002, with ~0.5% of British Jewish people as members), so there clearly is longstanding disagreement about Israeli policy within the Jewish community, even if concern for Palestinians is a minority view and therefore not representative.
The split with the Jewish Labour Movement appears to be over levels of support for Israeli policy, rather than levels of support for Corbyn. From where I sit, a constitutionally-declared ethnostate actively engaged in ethnic cleansing does seem a bit inconsistent with typical left-wing values like tolerance and plurality, but I know religion can drive people to hold inconsistent views.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my previous post, for which I apologise. At no point was I intending to suggest that either they weren't Jewish enough or that there weren't long-term Labour members within their ranks. If you have followed this depressing saga closely enough (as I have), one of the abiding and dishonest tropes that comes up is JVL claiming that other Jewish people call them 'not the right kind of Jew' - however when challenged they are unable to produce anyone actually saying that. What most people in the community object to (and specifically the large majority of Labour members of Jewish background) is claiming that their voice is in any way representative of a significant proportion of Jewish opinion within the Labour movement as their name implies. Jewish tradition is based on robust argument and intense discussions and differences of opinion (hence the old saw "Two Jews, Three Opinions") and most people in the community would fully endorse their right to hold and express any opinion they care to have, regardless of how objectionable they personally find it.
JVL was set up specifically to provide cover for people such as Corbyn and Livingstone. In that, they are probably closer ideologically to the Yevsektsiya rather than the Verband nationaldeutscher Jude although perhaps they are two sides of the same coin. I would recommend reading "Jews Don't Count" by David Baddiel (which avoids mentioning Israel as much as possible as he personally has no view on it) or "The Left's Jewish Problem: Jeremy Corbyn, Israel and Anti-Semitism" by Dave Rich (for an engaging account of the whole sorry story).
I have strong views on your offensive statement about Israel being an ethnostate actively engaged in ethnic cleansing. This probably isn't the place for a proper dissection of this, but compared to all of the states around that area, Israel performs considerably better. I haven't noted you calling out Lebanon, for example, for its treatment of minorities (including its Palestinians) which is way worse. The PLO has repeatedly stated that no Jews will be allowed in any Palestinian State (and all Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Gaza - an area that had a continuous recorded Jewish presence for more than 3000 years). Before I get too carried away I will just leave these statistics and then you can decide who is being ethnically cleansed:
Jewish Populations in Arab Countries:
Morocco: 265,000 in 1948, 6,000 in 2000
Algeria: 140,000 in 1948, < 1,000 in 2000
Tunisia: 105,000 in 1948, < 2,000 in 2000
Libya: 38,000 in 1948, None known in 2000
Egypt: 75,000 in 1948, < 1,000 in 2000
Yemen: 63,000 in 1948, < 1,000 in 2000
Syria: 20,000 in 1948, <1,000 in 2000
Iraq: 150,000 in 1948, <1,000 in 2000
Most of these were thrown out and had all their money and possessions confiscated.
In contrast the current Arab population of Israel is about 20% and includes MPs, government members, judges, businesspeople etc.- so if the Israeli government is engaged in ethnic cleansing, they are pretty crap at it compared to their Arab neighbours (who JVL never call out).
I'll stop here with a quote from the dreaded IHRA definition of antisemitism "However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." The whiners on the left (including JVL and others) can't accept this and continually want to go beyond this level to attack Israel in a way that they restrain from when looking at any other state. Israel is not perfect and there is plenty of legitimate criticism that can be (and is) levelled at it without it being antisemitic in any way whatsoever. However, where were the thousands of people marching and continual mass rallies against Myanmar for the reprehensible treatment of the Rohingya, the latest outrages in Afghanistan, the Syrian Civil War or what is going on in Yemen (all conflicts which have resulted in more casualties and more suffering). What is it about the world's only Jewish-majority state that they dislike so much that they will concentrate all their vitriol on it and ignore far greater abuses elsewhere?
I've gone on too long and a bit off-subject! If you want to continue, perhaps a new thread would be appropriate. Also, please note that I am back to travelling again and rather busy, so if I don't reply please don't be offended - I won't be on a flounce or ignoring you deliberately. I was a member of the Bad Science Forum for many years and in that whole time posted as much as some people posted in a month!