Scrutable

I'm waiting for the Corbyn faction to start screaming about Labour's lost deposit in Tiverton.

sTeamTraen wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:27 am

I'm waiting for the Corbyn faction to start screaming about Labour's lost deposit in Tiverton.

Oh, do grow up

Starmer really does need to start taking the bull by the horns. At the moment his timidity isn't really winning many to Labour, he's instead relying on Johnson's toxicity. If the Tories change Johnson as leader (and there's every expectation they will), Starmer will be back to square one. He's got to start offering something.

I know quoting yourself is a bit annoying but it just saves time writing a whole new post:

discovolante wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:24 pm

Personally I think being the party of small business is fine, I feel that if the pandemic is more or less over in the next however long before the election one option open to Labour is to massively hammer the Tories on how they have treated workers and small business owners, and frame protection of the NHS, education etc as protection of the people that work in those institutions (dare I say, 'workers') rather than just talking about these things as abstract entities. It will probably partly depend on public mood but if you support e.g. nurses (just for an easy example) and can get support from them, surely you have both a decent national campaign and a local touch where people can relate to nurses they know or have been cared for by. You can use this to promote better employment rights and working conditions (and NOT just pay, god) as well as improving the institutions themselves for the benefit of the families that Starmer likes to talk about. I think unions are also going to get hammered which is bad news too and needs to be pushed back on.

The thing is that Starmer (and for that matter, any remain supporting leader) is in a pickle, because the harm done to the country under the Tories was largely due to Brexit and then compounded and obscured by COVID.

... all those industries facing a shortage of workers (freight, air, NHS, agriculture, etc)...
... all those business with export issues...

... the root cause all comes back to Brexit, and how can he (or anyone else) undo the harm without also to some extent undoing Brexit?

Campaigning on that now with Johnson still in office is suicide... best tactic is to oppose and expose Boris for the self serving chancer he is.

It might be easier to fight battles on this patch after the Tories have ejected Johnson - once they've booted out the man who delivered a zero benefit Brexit it might be possible to start to have some sensible discussion about softening our stance to the EU / Single Market.

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:20 pm

The thing is that Starmer (and for that matter, any remain supporting leader) is in a pickle, because the harm done to the country under the Tories was largely due to Brexit and then compounded and obscured by COVID.

... all those industries facing a shortage of workers (freight, air, NHS, agriculture, etc)...
... all those business with export issues...

... the root cause all comes back to Brexit, and how can he (or anyone else) undo the harm without also to some extent undoing Brexit?

Campaigning on that now with Johnson still in office is suicide... best tactic is to oppose and expose Boris for the self serving chancer he is.

It might be easier to fight battles on this patch after the Tories have ejected Johnson - once they've booted out the man who delivered a zero benefit Brexit it might be possible to start to have some sensible discussion about softening our stance to the EU / Single Market.

¨

I agree.

Any serious attempt to improve the UK's current economic problems needs to start with rebuilding economic links with the EU.

However, promising to re-open Brexit would be electoral suicide, and more importantly, the rest of Europe isn't going to let Britain rejoin the customs union or single market anytime soon. The EU is going to be preoccupied with the Ukrainian accession.

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:20 pm

The thing is that Starmer (and for that matter, any remain supporting leader) is in a pickle, because the harm done to the country under the Tories was largely due to Brexit and then compounded and obscured by COVID.

... all those industries facing a shortage of workers (freight, air, NHS, agriculture, etc)...
... all those business with export issues...

... the root cause all comes back to Brexit, and how can he (or anyone else) undo the harm without also to some extent undoing Brexit?

Campaigning on that now with Johnson still in office is suicide... best tactic is to oppose and expose Boris for the self serving chancer he is.

It might be easier to fight battles on this patch after the Tories have ejected Johnson - once they've booted out the man who delivered a zero benefit Brexit it might be possible to start to have some sensible discussion about softening our stance to the EU / Single Market.

¨

I agree.

Any serious attempt to improve the UK's current economic problems needs to start with rebuilding economic links with the EU.

However, promising to re-open Brexit would be electoral suicide, and more importantly, the rest of Europe isn't going to let Britain rejoin the customs union or single market anytime soon. The EU is going to be preoccupied with the Ukrainian accession.

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

There won't be any imminent Ukranian accession. They will stay a candidate country for a decade as they are rebuilt, with very generous grants/loans from the EU. Assuming they manage to defeat Russia, that is.

I could see the EU permitting the UK to join the customs union, but only with some binding guarantee that swivel-eyed loons wouldn't be able to immediately take the UK out of it (maybe an Article 50 equivalent, but with a 6 year exit period, rather than 2, & a pre-defined 'what an exit would look like' chapter)

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:20 pm

The thing is that Starmer (and for that matter, any remain supporting leader) is in a pickle, because the harm done to the country under the Tories was largely due to Brexit and then compounded and obscured by COVID.

... all those industries facing a shortage of workers (freight, air, NHS, agriculture, etc)...
... all those business with export issues...

... the root cause all comes back to Brexit, and how can he (or anyone else) undo the harm without also to some extent undoing Brexit?

Campaigning on that now with Johnson still in office is suicide... best tactic is to oppose and expose Boris for the self serving chancer he is.

It might be easier to fight battles on this patch after the Tories have ejected Johnson - once they've booted out the man who delivered a zero benefit Brexit it might be possible to start to have some sensible discussion about softening our stance to the EU / Single Market.

¨

I agree.

Any serious attempt to improve the UK's current economic problems needs to start with rebuilding economic links with the EU.

However, promising to re-open Brexit would be electoral suicide, and more importantly, the rest of Europe isn't going to let Britain rejoin the customs union or single market anytime soon. The EU is going to be preoccupied with the Ukrainian accession.

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

Rebuilding links with the EU, but not rocking the Brexit boat is Labour's policy. Lammy was telling people that yesterday - clicky

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

No. But he could say that people have now had the chance to see the benefits and offer another chance for folks to express their views. Why guess what people want our relationship with the EU to be when he can just ask them?

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:01 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

No. But he could say that people have now had the chance to see the benefits and offer another chance for folks to express their views. Why guess what people want our relationship with the EU to be when he can just ask them?

Labour would not win an election campaigning for a 2nd referendum. Brexit split the Party and their voters. It's why many in the red wall voted for Johnson. Starmer would be sensible not to try and repeat that.

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:58 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:20 pm

The thing is that Starmer (and for that matter, any remain supporting leader) is in a pickle, because the harm done to the country under the Tories was largely due to Brexit and then compounded and obscured by COVID.

... all those industries facing a shortage of workers (freight, air, NHS, agriculture, etc)...
... all those business with export issues...

... the root cause all comes back to Brexit, and how can he (or anyone else) undo the harm without also to some extent undoing Brexit?

Campaigning on that now with Johnson still in office is suicide... best tactic is to oppose and expose Boris for the self serving chancer he is.

It might be easier to fight battles on this patch after the Tories have ejected Johnson - once they've booted out the man who delivered a zero benefit Brexit it might be possible to start to have some sensible discussion about softening our stance to the EU / Single Market.

¨

I agree.

Any serious attempt to improve the UK's current economic problems needs to start with rebuilding economic links with the EU.

However, promising to re-open Brexit would be electoral suicide, and more importantly, the rest of Europe isn't going to let Britain rejoin the customs union or single market anytime soon. The EU is going to be preoccupied with the Ukrainian accession.

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

Rebuilding links with the EU, but not rocking the Brexit boat is Labour's policy. Lammy was telling people that yesterday - clicky

Unless he and the rest of the Labour front bench start seriously talking about the tradeoffs involved (freedom of movement, following EU regulations etc) then its just a Labour version of cakeism.

tom p wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:51 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

TopBadger wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:20 pm

The thing is that Starmer (and for that matter, any remain supporting leader) is in a pickle, because the harm done to the country under the Tories was largely due to Brexit and then compounded and obscured by COVID.

... all those industries facing a shortage of workers (freight, air, NHS, agriculture, etc)...
... all those business with export issues...

... the root cause all comes back to Brexit, and how can he (or anyone else) undo the harm without also to some extent undoing Brexit?

Campaigning on that now with Johnson still in office is suicide... best tactic is to oppose and expose Boris for the self serving chancer he is.

It might be easier to fight battles on this patch after the Tories have ejected Johnson - once they've booted out the man who delivered a zero benefit Brexit it might be possible to start to have some sensible discussion about softening our stance to the EU / Single Market.

¨

I agree.

Any serious attempt to improve the UK's current economic problems needs to start with rebuilding economic links with the EU.

However, promising to re-open Brexit would be electoral suicide, and more importantly, the rest of Europe isn't going to let Britain rejoin the customs union or single market anytime soon. The EU is going to be preoccupied with the Ukrainian accession.

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

There won't be any imminent Ukranian accession. They will stay a candidate country for a decade as they are rebuilt, with very generous grants/loans from the EU. Assuming they manage to defeat Russia, that is.

I could see the EU permitting the UK to join the customs union, but only with some binding guarantee that swivel-eyed loons wouldn't be able to immediately take the UK out of it (maybe an Article 50 equivalent, but with a 6 year exit period, rather than 2, & a pre-defined 'what an exit would look like' chapter)

There would need to be more than that in return, to start with the UK agreeing to follow EU regulations so that British firms couldn't undercut EU competitors.

As for Ukraine, I agree. But it means that Brussels isn't going to be very enthusiastic about engaging in a complex set of negotiations with the UK when its focus is upon Ukraine and Russia.

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:06 pm

Labour would not win an election campaigning for a 2nd referendum. Brexit split the Party and their voters. It's why many in the red wall voted for Johnson. Starmer would be sensible not to try and repeat that.

Point of information, mr speaker. The 2016 EU Referendum was the 2nd Referendum. I'm old enough to have voted twice on EU membership.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:13 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:58 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

¨

I agree.

Any serious attempt to improve the UK's current economic problems needs to start with rebuilding economic links with the EU.

However, promising to re-open Brexit would be electoral suicide, and more importantly, the rest of Europe isn't going to let Britain rejoin the customs union or single market anytime soon. The EU is going to be preoccupied with the Ukrainian accession.

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

Rebuilding links with the EU, but not rocking the Brexit boat is Labour's policy. Lammy was telling people that yesterday - clicky

Unless he and the rest of the Labour front bench start seriously talking about the tradeoffs involved (freedom of movement, following EU regulations etc) then its just a Labour version of cakeism.

No it's not. It's We're-going-to-be-really-quiet-about-Brexit-but-if-you-do-notice-you'll-see-we're-more-sensible-than-Johnson-ism.

Labour aren't going to be campaigning on Brexit, Basically.

Nobody cares about trade law. Too tedious.

All Starmer needs to do is a simple two part answer:

"Boris Johnson is useless and signed a terrible deal with the EU..."

"... and we will negotiate a much better customs agreement, cutting red tape for small businesses and ending the queues at Dover."

What he mustn't do is be specific. Firmly rule out Customs Union or Single Market, because that's triggering for Leave fanatics, but say new customs agreement because it sounds nice.

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:28 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:13 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:58 pm

Rebuilding links with the EU, but not rocking the Brexit boat is Labour's policy. Lammy was telling people that yesterday - clicky

Unless he and the rest of the Labour front bench start seriously talking about the tradeoffs involved (freedom of movement, following EU regulations etc) then its just a Labour version of cakeism.

No it's not. It's We're-going-to-be-really-quiet-about-Brexit-but-if-you-do-notice-you'll-see-we're-more-sensible-than-Johnson-ism.

Labour aren't going to be campaigning on Brexit, Basically.

Fair enough, but then rebuilding links with the EU won't actually amount to anything that will have a significant effect. Because anything that actually makes a difference will come with tradeoffs.

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:32 pm

Nobody cares about trade law. Too tedious.

All Starmer needs to do is a simple two part answer:

"Boris Johnson is useless and signed a terrible deal with the EU..."

"... and we will negotiate a much better customs agreement, cutting red tape for small businesses and ending the queues at Dover."

What he mustn't do is be specific. Firmly rule out Customs Union or Single Market, because that's triggering for Leave fanatics, but say new customs agreement because it sounds nice.

And hope that none of the fanatics notice what the EU expects in return for the better customs agreement.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:32 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:28 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:13 pm

Unless he and the rest of the Labour front bench start seriously talking about the tradeoffs involved (freedom of movement, following EU regulations etc) then its just a Labour version of cakeism.

No it's not. It's We're-going-to-be-really-quiet-about-Brexit-but-if-you-do-notice-you'll-see-we're-more-sensible-than-Johnson-ism.

Labour aren't going to be campaigning on Brexit, Basically.

Fair enough, but then rebuilding links with the EU won't actually amount to anything that will have a significant effect. Because anything that actually makes a difference will come with tradeoffs.

I think rebuilding links here means "Not pissing the EU off over Northern Ireland".

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:35 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:32 pm

monkey wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:28 pm

No it's not. It's We're-going-to-be-really-quiet-about-Brexit-but-if-you-do-notice-you'll-see-we're-more-sensible-than-Johnson-ism.

Labour aren't going to be campaigning on Brexit, Basically.

Fair enough, but then rebuilding links with the EU won't actually amount to anything that will have a significant effect. Because anything that actually makes a difference will come with tradeoffs.

I think rebuilding links here means "Not pissing the EU off over Northern Ireland".

Which would be a very good thing. But it isn't going to help with the labour shortages, low exports, poor business investment and all the other economic problems that have been made worse by Brexit.

Presumably the thought is once in power Labour can slowly shuffle the UK back into incremental realignment with the EU and truly make it a BINO Brexit.

Assuming each turn of the ratchet brings clear and immediate benefits then they should be hard to argue against and not trigger a significant backlash with any group but the true Brexit loons who are welcome to wave placards denouncing closer co-operation with Europol in tackling terrorism or demanding the right to stand in the longer queue at Alicante airport.

Give it a few electoral cycles and the UK should be so closely aligned that formal membership of EFTA or the EU will just seem a small and obvious next step.

Hmm so Labour should expose the PM (he's been 'exposed' countless times already), and then not really campaign on Brexit? (as monkey said). So...what, then?

discovolante wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 5:18 pm

Hmm so Labour should expose the PM (he's been 'exposed' countless times already), and then not really campaign on Brexit? (as monkey said). So...what, then?

There's shitloads of other stuff that needs sorting out that needn't be explicitly linked to Brexit. Austerity, hostile environment and general Tory fuckery started before Brexit. Somebody wise suggested

to massively hammer the Tories on how they have treated workers and small business owners, and frame protection of the NHS, education etc as protection of the people that work in those institutions (dare I say, 'workers') rather than just talking about these things as abstract entities

for instance. I think those are good suggestions.

More help with the cost of living crisis, which isn't going away - even if the Ukraine crisis gets resolved climate instability is starting to really f.ck over agriculture in a lot of areas, and that will continue to worsen.

Improvements to the NHS and conditions for its workers.

The environment: stop filling rivers with sh.t, give statutory bodies sufficient funding, support insulation, electrification, affordable public transport.

Can the UK justify having the most expensive universities in the world with relatively little financial support?

Plus bits of Brexit needn't have been handled so badly. There's scope for much better visas for workers in key sectors, for instance.

There's plenty of countries outside the EU that try to make life easier for their citizens rather than being a laissez-faire free-for-all for oligarchs. The UK could try to join them.

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:16 pm

tom p wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:51 pm

Woodchopper wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:43 pm

¨

I agree.

Any serious attempt to improve the UK's current economic problems needs to start with rebuilding economic links with the EU.

However, promising to re-open Brexit would be electoral suicide, and more importantly, the rest of Europe isn't going to let Britain rejoin the customs union or single market anytime soon. The EU is going to be preoccupied with the Ukrainian accession.

If Starmer were into brutal honesty he could just go around telling the British electorate that they f.cked themselves over and there's nothing that anyone can do about it. But that probably wouldn't be a winning electoral strategy.

There won't be any imminent Ukranian accession. They will stay a candidate country for a decade as they are rebuilt, with very generous grants/loans from the EU. Assuming they manage to defeat Russia, that is.

I could see the EU permitting the UK to join the customs union, but only with some binding guarantee that swivel-eyed loons wouldn't be able to immediately take the UK out of it (maybe an Article 50 equivalent, but with a 6 year exit period, rather than 2, & a pre-defined 'what an exit would look like' chapter)

There would need to be more than that in return, to start with the UK agreeing to follow EU regulations so that British firms couldn't undercut EU competitors.

As for Ukraine, I agree. But it means that Brussels isn't going to be very enthusiastic about engaging in a complex set of negotiations with the UK when its focus is upon Ukraine and Russia.

Both very good points

lpm wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:32 pm

Nobody cares about trade law. Too tedious.

All Starmer needs to do is a simple two part answer:

"Boris Johnson is useless and signed a terrible deal with the EU..."

"... and we will negotiate a much better customs agreement, cutting red tape for small businesses and ending the queues at Dover."

What he mustn't do is be specific. Firmly rule out Customs Union or Single Market, because that's triggering for Leave fanatics, but say new customs agreement because it sounds nice.

This, except he shouldn't rule out customs union. Only a subset of leave nutters give a flying one about that, and he could taunt them by asking if the words trigger them (the subset of leave nutters overlaps considerably with the sort of c.nt who bangs on about snowflakes and triggering)

Rule out customs union. Call it customs agreement. End up with customs union, but with different packaging.

Don't pick fights with subsets of voters where you don't have to.