Scrutable

The Government legislation covering lockdown is here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020 ... tents/made

Regulation 7 says

no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people

which I take to mean that I could go for a walk with someone I don't live with (I'd keep 2m apart).

However, regulation 6 says

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need (...)

b) to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household

So does that mean that I can meet with one other person as long as we're not exercising? All the signs in the three big parks nearish me say no gatherings of more than two people outside the same household, which appears to agree with Reg 7.

I'm alone at home and it would mean a lot to go for a walk with one of the very few people I know in North London.

I'd interpreted it as meaning that you were ok to be chatting to a neighbour or friend if you saw them whilst out and about for another specified purpose, but that you couldn't leave the house to deliberately meet up.

mediocrity511 wrote: ↑

Sat May 02, 2020 3:49 pm

I'd interpreted it as meaning that you were ok to be chatting to a neighbour or friend if you saw them whilst out and about for another specified purpose, but that you couldn't leave the house to deliberately meet up.

However, the regs have been changed to say that you can't leave 'or be outside' where you live without reasonable excuse (legislation.gov.uk doesn't tend to amend secondary legislation, you only ever get the original version). So if you go out to exercise and then stop for a chat, you aren't exercising any more so don't have a reasonable excuse to be out.

TBH the most obvious reading is that yes you can be with one other person as long as you aren't exercising, as long as you both have a reasonable excuse for being out. I've just spent about 20 mins comparing both regs and looking for guidance and commentary but can't really see anything useful...remember this is quite quickly drafted legislation and isn't perfect. I mean if you wanted you could argue that not leaving home would affect both you and your friend's mental health, in which case the excuse would fall under para 6(2)(m)

That is why, after a proper revolution

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sat May 02, 2020 4:18 pm

However, the regs have been changed to say that you can't leave 'or be outside' where you live without reasonable excuse (legislation.gov.uk doesn't tend to amend secondary legislation, you only ever get the original version).

The amended version is at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350 - note the URL not ending in "/made". To switch versions see the links "Latest available (Revised)" and "Original (As made)" in the "What Version" section on the left.

So if you go out to exercise and then stop for a chat, you aren't exercising any more so don't have a reasonable excuse to be out.

TBH the most obvious reading is that yes you can be with one other person as long as you aren't exercising, as long as you both have a reasonable excuse for being out.

If you both have a reasonable excuse to be out, then exercising is fine as long as it does not negate the excuse. So, for example, if you both happen to decide to walk to a shop and meet on the way, you can decide to start jogging together to the shops as that means your excuses are still valid. However, if you decided to stop and do push-ups, then your original excuse would not longer cover you.

However, note that the wording is

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need

so the list is a list of guaranteed excuses. This does not mean that if your excuse is not on the list it is not valid. You merely ahve to have a "reasonable excuse".

Millennie Al wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 2:21 am

If you both have a reasonable excuse to be out, then exercising is fine as long as it does not negate the excuse. So, for example, if you both happen to decide to walk to a shop and meet on the way, you can decide to start jogging together to the shops as that means your excuses are still valid. However, if you decided to stop and do push-ups, then your original excuse would not longer cover you.

I don't see how you get that conclusion, unless you're saying that the push-ups could have been done at home. Trouble with laws like this, they always descend into legalism and entrails-reading to understand what they mean for all the many edge cases that arise in real life.

However, note that the wording is

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need

so the list is a list of guaranteed excuses. This does not mean that if your excuse is not on the list it is not valid. You merely ahve to have a "reasonable excuse".

An obvious example is going to the laundrette or dry cleaner, an activity not explicitly listed in s. 6, but Schedule 3 explicitly allows these premises to stay open.

Reg 7 of the amended version says

During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except— (etc as before)

So it's still OK for two people to 'gather'. Now I just need to find someone to gather with me.

Millennie Al wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 2:21 am

The amended version is at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350 - note the URL not ending in "/made". To switch versions see the links "Latest available (Revised)" and "Original (As made)" in the "What Version" section on the left.

Well waddayaknow, I didn't notice that. In that case I'll revise 'only ever' to 'often'.

If you both have a reasonable excuse to be out, then exercising is fine as long as it does not negate the excuse. So, for example, if you both happen to decide to walk to a shop and meet on the way, you can decide to start jogging together to the shops as that means your excuses are still valid. However, if you decided to stop and do push-ups, then your original excuse would not longer cover you.

I think that's a reasonably valid interpretation but also a bit unsatisfactory (but I think unsatisfactory interpretations are pretty unavoidable). The regs say exercise 'alone or with other members of the household' (although funnily enough the CPS guidance doesn't specify this: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/c ... tions-2020). So if you go out to go shopping, and start exercising, what is your reason for being out - technically it is also to exercise. And I think going for a jog on the way to the shops might be seen as a bit odd if you were stopped and asked about it. I personally wouldn't want to walk around the shops all sweaty after a run, it's not something I'd normally do.

However - is walking exercise? It certainly would be considered so by some people.

I don't really know how the police are dealing with this in London. I live in semi-rural Scotland and I think I've seen a police car once since the lockdown. It seems unlikely they would stop two people out running if they were 2m apart but I personally really don't know. (BTW I have read a bit of stuff about 2m maybe not being enough when you are running/exercising as you are breathing harder - anyone know about this?).

However, note that the wording is

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need

so the list is a list of guaranteed excuses. This does not mean that if your excuse is not on the list it is not valid. You merely ahve to have a "reasonable excuse".

It isn't a list of guaranteed excuses, because you have to have 'the need' to do those things. So unless you 'need' to exercise, it isn't a reasonable excuse. However again I don't really know how on earth you enforce that.

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:12 am

Reg 7 of the amended version says

During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except— (etc as before)

So it's still OK for two people to 'gather'. Now I just need to find someone to gather with me.

Yes but you are not allowed to be out of the house without reasonable excuse. Leaving or being out 'to gather' is not in itself a reasonable excuse.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:35 am

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:12 am

Reg 7 of the amended version says

During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people except— (etc as before)

So it's still OK for two people to 'gather'. Now I just need to find someone to gather with me.

Yes but you are not allowed to be out of the house without reasonable excuse. Leaving or being out 'to gather' is not in itself a reasonable excuse.

True. Mental health would be the 'excuse' in my case.

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:39 am

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:35 am

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:12 am

Reg 7 of the amended version says



So it's still OK for two people to 'gather'. Now I just need to find someone to gather with me.

Yes but you are not allowed to be out of the house without reasonable excuse. Leaving or being out 'to gather' is not in itself a reasonable excuse.

True. Mental health would be the 'excuse' in my case.

Well let's put it this way Tessa, I'm not going to call the cops on you for meeting up with a friend for the first time in over a month.

I guess at the end of the day it's a matter of judgement. You're dealing with police officers, and some are reasonable, and some are on mad power trips. The police guidance encourages engagement and discussion before slapping fines on people so if you are challenged then I reckon they should at least talk to you first before escalating it, if they are doing their job properly.

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:59 am

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:39 am

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 9:35 am

Yes but you are not allowed to be out of the house without reasonable excuse. Leaving or being out 'to gather' is not in itself a reasonable excuse.

True. Mental health would be the 'excuse' in my case.

Well let's put it this way Tessa, I'm not going to call the cops on you for meeting up with a friend for the first time in over a month.

I guess at the end of the day it's a matter of judgement. You're dealing with police officers, and some are reasonable, and some are on mad power trips. The police guidance encourages engagement and discussion before slapping fines on people so if you are challenged then I reckon they should at least talk to you first before escalating it, if they are doing their job properly.

It's not like I'm planning a party but there is someone who goes to the same parks as me and if we happen to be there at the same time... I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to go out walking when wandering around on my own aimlessly is getting depressing so it might get me back into it. We'll see. I am very mindful of social distancing and protecting the vulnerable.

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sat May 02, 2020 2:58 pm

The Government legislation covering lockdown is here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020 ... tents/made

Regulation 7 says

no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people

which I take to mean that I could go for a walk with someone I don't live with (I'd keep 2m apart).

However, regulation 6 says

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need (...)

b) to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household

So does that mean that I can meet with one other person as long as we're not exercising? All the signs in the three big parks nearish me say no gatherings of more than two people outside the same household, which appears to agree with Reg 7.

I'm alone at home and it would mean a lot to go for a walk with one of the very few people I know in North London.

I read that to mean that you can be in public with at most one other member of your household, but if you live with say four people you couldn't all head out and "gather" at the same time. (That's the rule here - e.g. you see couples or parent-child combos in the supermarket, but if an entire family turned up together they'd be refused entrance)

But as others have said, I think you're unlikely to have any legal trouble, or actually increase coronavirus risk, if you're walking close to a friend for your daily exercise. As long as you look like you're following the rules I'd be surprised if the police stopped two people exercising responsibly together in order to check that they're members of the same household.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 4:42 pm

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Sat May 02, 2020 2:58 pm

The Government legislation covering lockdown is here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020 ... tents/made

Regulation 7 says

no person may participate in a gathering in a public place of more than two people

which I take to mean that I could go for a walk with someone I don't live with (I'd keep 2m apart).

However, regulation 6 says

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need (...)

b) to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household

So does that mean that I can meet with one other person as long as we're not exercising? All the signs in the three big parks nearish me say no gatherings of more than two people outside the same household, which appears to agree with Reg 7.

I'm alone at home and it would mean a lot to go for a walk with one of the very few people I know in North London.

I read that to mean that you can be in public with at most one other member of your household, but if you live with say four people you couldn't all head out and "gather" at the same time. (That's the rule here - e.g. you see couples or parent-child combos in the supermarket, but if an entire family turned up together they'd be refused entrance)

But as others have said, I think you're unlikely to have any legal trouble, or actually increase coronavirus risk, if you're walking close to a friend for your daily exercise. As long as you look like you're following the rules I'd be surprised if the police stopped two people exercising responsibly together in order to check that they're members of the same household.

One of the exceptions to gatherings is if you are all members of the same household, so you can all go out at once if you have a reasonable excuse...

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 4:46 pm

One of the exceptions to gatherings is if you are all members of the same household, so you can all go out at once if you have a reasonable excuse...

Ah ok, I'd missed that, thanks. It is a bit confusing, eh?

At least exercising with one other person isn't explicitly ruled out by 6—2(b) and is compatible with 7. Perhaps they just didn't want to be seen to encourage meetups? The lack of guidance for really common things like this is baffling, tbh.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 4:50 pm

discovolante wrote: ↑

Sun May 03, 2020 4:46 pm

One of the exceptions to gatherings is if you are all members of the same household, so you can all go out at once if you have a reasonable excuse...

Ah ok, I'd missed that, thanks. It is a bit confusing, eh?

At least exercising with one other person isn't explicitly ruled out by 6—2(b) and is compatible with 7. Perhaps they just didn't want to be seen to encourage meetups? The lack of guidance for really common things like this is baffling, tbh.

Yeah...I mean people can post advice on this stuff with confidence if they like but it really isn't that clear at all, and stuff like this should be.

You are not allowed to meet up with someone in a park to exercise. Footballers kept doing it and got a kicking from the tabloids.

But we're all adults and know the genuine risk of meeting a friend and exercising 2 metres apart - although spluttering along out of breath probably sprays RNA greater than 2 metres.

There was a graphic somewhere about the downwind tail different speeds of travel have. So cycling has a 15m tail behind the cyclist, walking at normal pace is 2m, running is more like 5-10m.

This could be a significant source of infection when people are all out exercises.

plebian wrote: ↑

Mon May 04, 2020 9:44 am

There was a graphic somewhere about the downwind tail different speeds of travel have. So cycling has a 15m tail behind the cyclist, walking at normal pace is 2m, running is more like 5-10m.

This could be a significant source of infection when people are all out exercises.

With runners it depends how fit they are. Some can run for ages and be barely out of breath, others (like me) are gasping after ten minutes. I've stopped running otudoors now; even though I was going early when no one was around, my knees hate it.

Everyone I saw in Regent's Park this morning was keeping well apart. Except the dogs.

plebian wrote: ↑

Mon May 04, 2020 9:44 am

There was a graphic somewhere about the downwind tail different speeds of travel have. So cycling has a 15m tail behind the cyclist, walking at normal pace is 2m, running is more like 5-10m.

This could be a significant source of infection when people are all out exercises.

Surely it's a time thing rather than a distance thing, as the presumption is that droplets will fall away over time.

It's how quickly someone might move into the 'tail' of a fast cyclist - if they've given a 2 metre leeway to the people they're passing, then it's not so likely that the passed person will move into the 'space' that soon

Though it does imply that cyclists should keep no less than 15m behind other cyclists.

But as I recall the paper was subjected to some criticism as it was purely based on a model of shedding and not actually being tested for veracity.

NB my sig applies.

Is there any evidence that significant number of cases have outdoor transmission? Based on what I have seen of the number of people outside in fine weather, and the various studies, papers, diagrams, etc being circulated on social media, I would expect transmission to be boosted in warmer weather when people are outside.

Maybe that is why the curve is not declining as much as has been predicted.

Perhaps cycling and running should be prohibited.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Mon May 04, 2020 12:52 pm

Is there any evidence that significant number of cases have outdoor transmission? Based on what I have seen of the number of people outside in fine weather, and the various studies, papers, diagrams, etc being circulated on social media, I would expect transmission to be boosted in warmer weather when people are outside.

Maybe that is why the curve is not declining as much as has been predicted.

Perhaps cycling and running should be prohibited.

It's much easier to see people outdoors; people meeting in their homes is hard to monitor but probably worse for spreading infection as people are less likely to keep their distance when visiting family or having a beer at their mate's.

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Mon May 04, 2020 12:59 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Mon May 04, 2020 12:52 pm

Is there any evidence that significant number of cases have outdoor transmission? Based on what I have seen of the number of people outside in fine weather, and the various studies, papers, diagrams, etc being circulated on social media, I would expect transmission to be boosted in warmer weather when people are outside.

Maybe that is why the curve is not declining as much as has been predicted.

Perhaps cycling and running should be prohibited.

It's much easier to see people outdoors; people meeting in their homes is hard to monitor but probably worse for spreading infection as people are less likely to keep their distance when visiting family or having a beer at their mate's.

We are both speculating. Is there any evidence? I havent seen any yet.

Based on what DAG tweeted, the list of reasonable excuses is prefixed with "...includes...". Which means it is not an exhaustive list of all reasonable excuses. But the reasonableness any other particular excuse has to be settled in court.

Tessa K wrote: ↑

Mon May 04, 2020 12:22 pm

plebian wrote: ↑

Mon May 04, 2020 9:44 am

There was a graphic somewhere about the downwind tail different speeds of travel have. So cycling has a 15m tail behind the cyclist, walking at normal pace is 2m, running is more like 5-10m.

This could be a significant source of infection when people are all out exercises.

With runners it depends how fit they are. Some can run for ages and be barely out of breath, others (like me) are gasping after ten minutes. I've stopped running otudoors now; even though I was going early when no one was around, my knees hate it.

Everyone I saw in Regent's Park this morning was keeping well apart. Except the dogs.

The graphic isn't particularly relevant to CoVID-19, as CoVID-19 is believed to spread by droplets, not aerosols. Droplets drop out of the air much quicker, and so aren't spread by downwind tails of airflow.

Out here in Spain there is no such confusion. The decree specifies pretty much exactly what you can or, more importantly, what you can't do - and when. Of course, there are a few Brit immigrants trying to split hairs with the Guardia Civil. All that gets you is a €601 fine (minimum). They're all pretty much Brexiteers or totalitarian conspiracy theorists, mind.
f.ck 'em, Spain's got to get some revenue in.