Anti lockdown demo

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
User avatar
discovolante
Dorkwood
Posts: 1003
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by discovolante » Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 pm

I would say well they should have just called the police instead but...
'We are police officers, not street urchins playing street chess in the park!'

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
After Pie
Posts: 1961
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 19, 2020 9:31 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 pm
I would say well they should have just called the police instead but...
A neighbour had called the police, who were nearby and already on their way when Arbery was killed.

I suspect there is a slightly higher chance of the killers facing some sort of justice if they're non-cops, if only because the chance for actual cops is 0%. So that's almost a slight upside.

User avatar
Martin Y
Catbabel
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 19, 2020 10:21 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:31 pm
I suspect there is a slightly higher chance of the killers facing some sort of justice if they're non-cops, if only because the chance for actual cops is 0%. So that's almost a slight upside.
I hate to pop that optimistic bubble but I gather the older accused is an ex-cop.

User avatar
murmur
Fuzzable
Posts: 342
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:09 am
Location: West of the fields

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by murmur » Wed May 20, 2020 9:59 am

A former investigator for the District Attorney, who had a history of missing training, especially about use of firearms and detaining suspects...
It's so much more attractive inside the moral kiosk

FlammableFlower
Fuzzable
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed May 20, 2020 1:51 pm

murmur wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:59 am
A former investigator for the District Attorney, who had a history of missing training, especially about use of firearms and detaining suspects...
But he made damn sure his anti-terrorism training was up to date...

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
After Pie
Posts: 1961
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 20, 2020 2:31 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:21 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:31 pm
I suspect there is a slightly higher chance of the killers facing some sort of justice if they're non-cops, if only because the chance for actual cops is 0%. So that's almost a slight upside.
I hate to pop that optimistic bubble but I gather the older accused is an ex-cop.
Yeah I know, that's partly why there was no prosecution for months. (I particularly like the way people have recused themselves from the case while also writing letters to colleagues saying the shooters should get away with it, falsely claiming that they're covered under citizens arrest legislation.)

I'm just saying that a active cop, especially on duty, could do a murder in literally any circumstances and get away with it. Even to white people, like
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin ... iel_Shaver or this more recent case http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/ho ... 235653.php

EACLucifer
Fuzzable
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm

The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
After Pie
Posts: 1961
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Yes, I completely agree with this. There's certainly a major problem of racism but also broader societal issues that are basically to do with power dynamics and class relations, on top of which specific issues about the functioning of the police and the wider justice system.

The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.

AMS
Clardic Fug
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:14 pm

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by AMS » Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Police in the UK can also generally head into most situations with an assumption that nobody on the scene is carrying a firearm, including the police themselves. If nobody is in immediate danger of being shot, it is much more conducive to approach the situation calmly. For US cops it's the opposite, and everything starts from a more volatile baseline.

User avatar
Woodchopper
Dorkwood
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:05 am

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by Woodchopper » Wed May 20, 2020 4:43 pm

AMS wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Police in the UK can also generally head into most situations with an assumption that nobody on the scene is carrying a firearm, including the police themselves. If nobody is in immediate danger of being shot, it is much more conducive to approach the situation calmly. For US cops it's the opposite, and everything starts from a more volatile baseline.
Yes, indeed. Lots of Europeans were aghast at US police departments obtaining ex-military armoured vehicles. But when people can walk out of a shop with one of these it’s a sensible precaution.
D4603EA9-35E6-4A1A-864F-AA81FC505F4F.jpeg
D4603EA9-35E6-4A1A-864F-AA81FC505F4F.jpeg (134.3 KiB) Viewed 163 times

EACLucifer
Fuzzable
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 4:47 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:43 pm
AMS wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:46 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:42 pm
The reason American police kill isn't always just racism. It's also a militarised obsession with combat, and an attitude that considers cops to be good guys, and everyone who is a bad guy is fair game for violence and false charges. Racist prejudice happens to be one of the major ways they decide who they think of as a bad guy, but other prejudices are too.

This is not meant as "all lives matter" type nonsense, more that cases where police murder white people are not at all inconsistent with police murders of black people being a result of racist prejudice, and that confronting racism, while necessary, is not sufficient to stop American police murdering people; emphasis on radical reform to support due process, demilitarisation of the American police and emphasis on de-escalation is also an essential part of stopping the racist murder of black Americans by the American police.
Police in the UK can also generally head into most situations with an assumption that nobody on the scene is carrying a firearm, including the police themselves. If nobody is in immediate danger of being shot, it is much more conducive to approach the situation calmly. For US cops it's the opposite, and everything starts from a more volatile baseline.
Yes, indeed. Lots of Europeans were aghast at US police departments obtaining ex-military armoured vehicles. But when people can walk out of a shop with one of these it’s a sensible precaution.
D4603EA9-35E6-4A1A-864F-AA81FC505F4F.jpeg
That's probably one of the least dangerous firearms one can get in the states. The dangerous ones are the easily concealed, cheap little straight-blowback .25s and .32s that can be thrown away after use.

And there's plenty of nations where people can get guns. Not saying they aren't a factor, but they clearly aren't the main problem, given that it is quite possible to get guns in many european countries, for example. Nor do guns explain things like the tendency of American police to plant drugs - but things like civil asset forfeiture and the confrontational attitudes endemic in their police do.

User avatar
jimbob
Catbabel
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by jimbob » Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm

Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
Martin Y
Catbabel
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:08 pm

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by Martin Y » Wed May 20, 2020 5:59 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm
...
The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.
Slip of the keyboard, I appreciate, but of course Rodney King was not murdered. The police beat the crap out of him, and the only reason we've heard of him is that someone got it on video.

EACLucifer
Fuzzable
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 6:11 pm

jimbob wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm
Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
Yes, it is a perfect breeding ground for cronyism, and a culture where the police bond with each other but hold the public in contempt.

User avatar
jimbob
Catbabel
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by jimbob » Wed May 20, 2020 7:09 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 6:11 pm
jimbob wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:40 pm
Having 12 thousand odd police forces over half with fewer than 10 full time employees is also a problem
Yes, it is a perfect breeding ground for cronyism, and a culture where the police bond with each other but hold the public in contempt.
As far as I can tell, Hazard County Sheriff might make it to the bottom quartile of US police forces, but probably no worse
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
After Pie
Posts: 1961
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: with the birds

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 20, 2020 7:19 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:59 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm
...
The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.
Slip of the keyboard, I appreciate, but of course Rodney King was not murdered. The police beat the crap out of him, and the only reason we've heard of him is that someone got it on video.
Slip of the brain! Thanks for the correction.

Having cameras everywhere, including on the front of police, doesn't seem to have stopped cases like that as much as might have been expected/hoped.

EACLucifer
Fuzzable
Posts: 302
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:49 am
Location: Behind you

Re: Anti lockdown demo

Post by EACLucifer » Wed May 20, 2020 7:20 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:19 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:59 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 3:21 pm
...
The fact that basically nothing has changed in the 30 years since Rodney King was murdered is pretty depressing.
Slip of the keyboard, I appreciate, but of course Rodney King was not murdered. The police beat the crap out of him, and the only reason we've heard of him is that someone got it on video.
Slip of the brain! Thanks for the correction.

Having cameras everywhere, including on the front of police, doesn't seem to have stopped cases like that as much as might have been expected/hoped.
One major problem being that even when they are caught on those cameras doing incredibly shady sh.t, qualified immunity and a force culture where that kind of behaviour is not just tolerated but expected, mean they get away with it anyway.

Post Reply