Scrutable

The fascist government of China have just broken every pledge made re: "One Country, Two Systems" when Hong Kong was abandoned to them over twenty years ago. They are disregarding the basic law of Hong Kong, and imposing their own fascist system while the rest of the world is battling a pandemic.

I am utterly terrified at the possible - and likely - fate of those brave people who protested so peacefully and convincingly over the last year. Ultimately, China knew they were losing the argument, losing the elections. They confirmed it with this vile power grab, just as they confirmed their guilt re: coronavirus by trying to suppress an independent inquiry.

This is tangential to the point of the thread, but I wonder if anyone else feels rather uncomfortable with the word fascist in Fascist China?

I mean it’s nationalist, authoritarian and underpinned with the threat of violence, which is kinda the definition of fascist, but, but, but...

the word fascist is so overused as a general term of abuse for things the speaker (ok, writer as it’s messages on social media where I see it) doesn’t like that I wonder if there’s a better word available, one that doesn’t remind me of knee jerk reactions by jerks, if you see what I mean.

Or am I just talking bollocks?

individualmember wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 1:14 pm

This is tangential to the point of the thread, but I wonder if anyone else feels rather uncomfortable with the word fascist in Fascist China?

I mean it’s nationalist, authoritarian and underpinned with the threat of violence, which is kinda the definition of fascist, but, but, but...

the word fascist is so overused as a general term of abuse for things the speaker (ok, writer as it’s messages on social media where I see it) doesn’t like that I wonder if there’s a better word available, one that doesn’t remind me of knee jerk reactions by jerks, if you see what I mean.

Or am I just talking bollocks?

I can see where you are coming from, but I did choose my words carefully.

I've often seen people use Dr. Lawrence Britt's 14 Characteristics of Fascism as a benchmark for what a fascist regime is. Here's a link - https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

We can go through them one by one.

• Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
  Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
  Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
  Supremacy of the Military
  Rampant Sexism
  Controlled Mass Media
  Obsession with National Security
  Religion and Government are Intertwined
  Corporate Power is Protected
  Labor Power is Suppressed
  Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
  Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
  Fraudulent Elections

There's explanations of what Dr. Britt meant by each at the link, although most are self-evident. I can't see a single one China does not meet.

As for why it is important to confront the fascist nature of the Chinese regime, it is because a lot of people who would normally vehemently oppose fascism have a blind spot for either the CCP in particular, or nonwestern regimes in general. We've had a poster post-and-running Chinese propaganda - the cringey, lie-filled video in this link was posted, then deleted because of the backlast, to twitter by the Chinese Mission to the EU before it was posted here - and most people have just ignored it in a way they wouldn't if someone advocated Mussolini's Italy, the hard right in this country, or Donald Trump.

The Chinese regime is doing more than merely sabre rattling and making preposterous maritime claims; in response to Australia's call for an independent investigation into COVID-19's origins, they have threatened tariffs on Australia, eg 80% on barley. They continue to censor and spread disinformation and continue to disappear whistleblowers and bloggers. Their heavy-handed and thuggish abrogation of agreements with Hong Kong evokes Germany's annexations and abrogations in the 30s. They are systematically attempting to destroy the Uighurs, with masses of disappearances, concentration camps and forced labour.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:28 pm

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 7:54 am

There were definitely toilet roll shortages in Hong Kong. I can't find it (on my phone), but there was a news article on panic buying and a toilet roll delivery bring hijacked by a criminal gang to sell on the black market. And that was before definitely pre-lockdown and panic buying in this country.

It seems to have been a ripple-like effect and once enough people are in it then spreads rapidly. Also the waves of different products getting sold out. First toilet roll, then pasta, rice and tinned goods. Then flour. I can remember going out each week to shop and one week thinking, "oh there's loads of x" and the next week, it'd all be empty.

Mate in HK, said he was lucky he bought TP before the pandemic, but since has complained of various shortages including liquid soap. He says life is going on pretty much normally since then as long as you wear a mask.

It'll be going on a lot less normally now the fascist CCP has decided to ignore their "one country, two systems" promises and impose its own law directly.

Mod note: this post was moved from "Could an earlier lockdown have saved 30,000?" in the Pandemic Arena.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:23 pm

I've often seen people use Dr. Lawrence Britt's 14 Characteristics of Fascism as a benchmark for what a fascist regime is. Here's a link - https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

That is a useful link, thanks, I’m bookmarking it for future use.

I didn’t mean to criticise your choice of words personally, it’s that I’ve seen it enough times to think it’s becoming a meme already.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:23 pm

individualmember wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 1:14 pm

This is tangential to the point of the thread, but I wonder if anyone else feels rather uncomfortable with the word fascist in Fascist China?

I mean it’s nationalist, authoritarian and underpinned with the threat of violence, which is kinda the definition of fascist, but, but, but...

the word fascist is so overused as a general term of abuse for things the speaker (ok, writer as it’s messages on social media where I see it) doesn’t like that I wonder if there’s a better word available, one that doesn’t remind me of knee jerk reactions by jerks, if you see what I mean.

Or am I just talking bollocks?

I can see where you are coming from, but I did choose my words carefully.

I've often seen people use Dr. Lawrence Britt's 14 Characteristics of Fascism as a benchmark for what a fascist regime is. Here's a link - https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

We can go through them one by one.

• Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
  Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
  Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
  Supremacy of the Military
  Rampant Sexism
  Controlled Mass Media
  Obsession with National Security
  Religion and Government are Intertwined
  Corporate Power is Protected
  Labor Power is Suppressed
  Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
  Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
  Fraudulent Elections

There's explanations of what Dr. Britt meant by each at the link, although most are self-evident. I can't see a single one China does not meet.

Does China bother with fraudulent elections? Asking for my own edification...

dyqik wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 3:14 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:23 pm

individualmember wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 1:14 pm

This is tangential to the point of the thread, but I wonder if anyone else feels rather uncomfortable with the word fascist in Fascist China?

I mean it’s nationalist, authoritarian and underpinned with the threat of violence, which is kinda the definition of fascist, but, but, but...

the word fascist is so overused as a general term of abuse for things the speaker (ok, writer as it’s messages on social media where I see it) doesn’t like that I wonder if there’s a better word available, one that doesn’t remind me of knee jerk reactions by jerks, if you see what I mean.

Or am I just talking bollocks?

I can see where you are coming from, but I did choose my words carefully.

I've often seen people use Dr. Lawrence Britt's 14 Characteristics of Fascism as a benchmark for what a fascist regime is. Here's a link - https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

We can go through them one by one.

• Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
  Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
  Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
  Supremacy of the Military
  Rampant Sexism
  Controlled Mass Media
  Obsession with National Security
  Religion and Government are Intertwined
  Corporate Power is Protected
  Labor Power is Suppressed
  Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
  Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
  Fraudulent Elections

There's explanations of what Dr. Britt meant by each at the link, although most are self-evident. I can't see a single one China does not meet.

Does China bother with fraudulent elections? Asking for my own edification...

Dr. Britt wrote the list while talking about Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany, Franco's Spain, Suharto's Indonesia and Pinochet's Chile. I'd argue fraudulent or absent elections would make more sense.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:34 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:28 pm

FlammableFlower wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 7:54 am

There were definitely toilet roll shortages in Hong Kong. I can't find it (on my phone), but there was a news article on panic buying and a toilet roll delivery bring hijacked by a criminal gang to sell on the black market. And that was before definitely pre-lockdown and panic buying in this country.

It seems to have been a ripple-like effect and once enough people are in it then spreads rapidly. Also the waves of different products getting sold out. First toilet roll, then pasta, rice and tinned goods. Then flour. I can remember going out each week to shop and one week thinking, "oh there's loads of x" and the next week, it'd all be empty.

Mate in HK, said he was lucky he bought TP before the pandemic, but since has complained of various shortages including liquid soap. He says life is going on pretty much normally since then as long as you wear a mask.

It'll be going on a lot less normally now the fascist CCP has decided to ignore their "one country, two systems" promises and impose its own law directly.

He is looking forward to being able to go to Central without being tear gassed or fire bombed.

Mod note: this post was moved from "Could an earlier lockdown have saved 30,000?" in the Pandemic Arena.

Most of those conditions would apply to Trump's America or Boris Britain.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 4:38 pm

Most of those conditions would apply to Trump's America or Boris Britain.

If you want to criticise Johnson or Trump, do so, but they aren't, despite their myriad ills, on the same level as China for abuses.

Indeed, one of the most damning things one can say about Trump is he appears to wish he had the anti-democratic and coercive powers Xi's regime already has and uses.

Let's do a comparison;
Johnson's government spins and uses friendly journalists to smear opponents while lying constantly.
Trump's berates journalists from the rostrum and calls impotently for his 2016 opponent to be locked up.
CCP's China has no free press, people perceived to be critical of government and people who document things CCP wish hidden disappear.

So it's clear all you are doing here is pathetic whataboutery. Akin to posting in response to people condemning a mass murderer that other people totally unrelated to the subject have occasionally committed assault and battery. If this is the only defense you have for the totalitarian regime of the CCP, why do you post their propaganda?

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 4:34 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:34 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 2:28 pm

Mate in HK, said he was lucky he bought TP before the pandemic, but since has complained of various shortages including liquid soap. He says life is going on pretty much normally since then as long as you wear a mask.

It'll be going on a lot less normally now the fascist CCP has decided to ignore their "one country, two systems" promises and impose its own law directly.

He is looking forward to being able to go to Central without being tear gassed or fire bombed.

Well done, the bootlicker for totalitarians has found, invented, or misrepresented another bootlicker for totalitarians.

The teargas, beatings and violence came from the regime, and pro-Beijing triads.

The protesters were overwhelmingly peaceful and decent.

The attitude of Hong Kongers was demonstrated clearly in the local elections in november, when, with an unprecedented large turnout, pro-democracy candidates triumphed over regime stooges and won six times as many seats as the pro-Beijing candidates.

Mod note: this post and subsequent replies were moved from "Could an earlier lockdown have saved 30,000?" in the Pandemic Arena.

The Hong Kong protests were to a large part funded and encouraged by the CIA and the Five Eyes.

Anyway that is not the point of this thread. China and HK locked down at a point where they could save numerous lives. The UK's fatalities will end up being 10 or 20 times China's.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 6:12 pm

The Hong Kong protests were to a large part funded and encouraged by the CIA and the Five Eyes.

f.ck off, you patronising conspiracy-theorist tw.t. Hong Kong's protests were because Honk Kongers are terrified of the Chinese regime treating them in the same way it treats those in mainland China and occupied Tibet.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 6:40 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 6:12 pm

The Hong Kong protests were to a large part funded and encouraged by the CIA and the Five Eyes.

f.ck off, you patronising conspiracy-theorist tw.t. Hong Kong's protests were because Honk Kongers are terrified of the Chinese regime treating them in the same way it treats those in mainland China and occupied Tibet.

Lucifer, you are so cute when you're angry..

Trump’s befuddlement might be understandable considering the carefully managed narrative of the US government and its unofficial media apparatus, which have portrayed the protests as an organic “pro-democracy” expression of grassroots youth. However, a look beneath the surface of this oversimplified, made-for-television script reveals that the ferociously anti-Chinese network behind the demonstrations has been cultivated with the help of millions of dollars from the US government, as well as a Washington-linked local media tycoon.

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/08/17/hong ... -violence/

Mods, can we move this to the weighty matters board, away from the coronavirus board?

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 7:28 pm

Mods, can we move this to the weighty matters board, away from the coronavirus board?

Yes.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 7:28 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 6:40 pm

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 6:12 pm

The Hong Kong protests were to a large part funded and encouraged by the CIA and the Five Eyes.

f.ck off, you patronising conspiracy-theorist tw.t. Hong Kong's protests were because Honk Kongers are terrified of the Chinese regime treating them in the same way it treats those in mainland China and occupied Tibet.

Lucifer, you are so cute when you're angry..

Yeah, I get angry with fascist propaganda. That's not exactly a failing, now, is it? Certainly not a failing like posting it is.

I don't care if your pro-CCP shite is sincere or not. If you f.ck a pig ironically or to see who is annoyed by you f.cking a pig, or because ou were really attracted to the pig, you are still a pigfucker.

Trump’s befuddlement might be understandable considering the carefully managed narrative of the US government and its unofficial media apparatus, which have portrayed the protests as an organic “pro-democracy” expression of grassroots youth. However, a look beneath the surface of this oversimplified, made-for-television script reveals that the ferociously anti-Chinese network behind the demonstrations has been cultivated with the help of millions of dollars from the US government, as well as a Washington-linked local media tycoon.

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/08/17/hong ... -violence/

Wait, you think quoting Max Blumenthal's site is going to make you look like less of a conspiracy theorist? He's widely regarded as as a dishonest propagandist, inc apparently profiting financially after shilling for Assad.

Mods, can we move this to the weighty matters board, away from the coronavirus board?

I'd support moving this also.

Lucifer, do you think there are some situations where a leftist authoritarian government can do more to help the general population than a post-imperialist, cronyist, pseudo-democracy?

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 8:25 pm

Lucifer, do you think there are some situations where a leftist authoritarian government can do more to help the general population than a post-imperialist, cronyist, pseudo-democracy?

That isn't the f.cking question, because those are not very accurate descriptors of any of the countries we have mentioned. China is not functionally leftist and has not been so for a long time. Instead, corporate power is protected, eg, by arresting and detaining arbitrarily Canadians to try and force Canada to release a dubious Huiwei exec.

China initially suppressed news of the outbreak. Bloggers and journalists have disappeared for discussing it. Mere mention of SAR symptoms on a group chat of healthcare workers saw a doctor threatened by the police. Had they been open, there may have been more done both within China - it's hard to social distance when you don't know there's a pandemic on - and it's spread out through nearby countries could have been limited better, although the democracies of Souyth Korea and Taiwan did a good job anyway. We don't know what the cost of that delay is, but it could potentially be as high as every single infection outside China and a lot of those within.

And the leading candidate for the origin of this disease in the first place is a wildlife market, something long recognised as extremely dangerous - aside from fuelling the illegal trade in endangered species to cater to ignorant woo - but allowed to continue by the corrupt and cronyist Chinese regime.

It is common for advocates of fascism to argue about an efficient but authoritarian state vs an inefficient free one, but it is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. Mussolini did not in fact make the trains run on time, he merely claimed he did. There is a gulf between fascist propaganda and fascist practise.

But even if we were to say they had handled things well - which they have not - this is a thread that I started in response to their appalling abrogation of their promises to Hong Kong. They knew that Hong Kong was increasingly opposed to them from the elections in November. That, and the eyes of the world being on their own problems, is why they broke that promise now. If Hong Kong opened up again as it had been before, Xi's pathetic ego would have taken further hits from the vibrant, courageous protestors.

And Hong Kong is hardly the only place they are doing wrong. I have repeatedly challenged you on China's attempts to eradicate the Uighurs' culture. Hundreds of thousands have been forced into concentration camps. Graveyards and mosques have been destroyed. I posted satellite pictures of the crimes. You ignored them. I also included examples of their attempts to blame Black people for coronavirus, and Black people being denied access to premises and accomodation solely due to the colour of their skin.

You are continuing to post propaganda for a vile, repressive, racist regime, one that is engaging in atrocious human rights abuses. While I hold such behaviour in contempt, I also recognise that these days especially it is possible to be radicalised by internet echo chambers. You should challenge your beliefs by examining in detail what China has done to the Uighurs. Until your views change, though, you are on the exact same moral level as a neofascist. That's not an enviable place to be.

Herainestold wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 8:25 pm

Lucifer, do you think there are some situations where a leftist authoritarian government can do more to help the general population than a post-imperialist, cronyist, pseudo-democracy?

Yeah, they're doing a bunch of good for the Uighurs.

individualmember wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 1:14 pm

This is tangential to the point of the thread, but I wonder if anyone else feels rather uncomfortable with the word fascist in Fascist China?

It's an example of the debating strategy of saying X is very like Y, and we hate Y, so we should hate X. It's essentially a mixture of laziness in not just arguing directly about X and an element of name calling.

I always thought a crucial part of fascism was harking back to supposed glory days of the past, and an attempt to reclaim them by strict military like order reinforcing the fabric of society. I think China would not be fascist for that reason.

Looking at Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism I don’t see this though, so it may just be me.

Nonetheless I do know that fascism was a term developed for the “far right” derived totalitarian type governments or promoters and not far left derived ones. The similarities between far right and fat left has often been commented on but “fascism” is not a term used for both, while things like “totalitarian” have been. Technically far right and far left are just labels as well but the regimes proponents and regimes of these ideologies viewed themselves as fundamentally distinct and most people can see this.

With the market reforms China instituted, making it less and less communist, the lines may have been blurred, but it still seems a leap, because it is still an authoritarian state that came into being espousing a left wing ideology and despite what you say I think there are remnants of that in the way the Chinese state views itself, the way others view it and the way it runs. I think in general calling it fascist, when that word does not feel right to people, just makes you like biased and puts people off what you are trying to say.

Is this today's reading from the "big book of facts that prove our nation's enemies are evil"?

Wot Bewildered said!

Also, even in the Wikipedia article on Fascism, it does mention that the tenets of Fascism are: i) the rebirth myth, ii) populist ultra-nationalism, and iii) the myth of decadence of liberal democracy. So there is a tendency for harking back to supposed glory days of the past, even if those days didn't really exist; it's not just you Bewildered!

Millennie Al wrote: ↑

Sun May 24, 2020 2:24 am

individualmember wrote: ↑

Sat May 23, 2020 1:14 pm

This is tangential to the point of the thread, but I wonder if anyone else feels rather uncomfortable with the word fascist in Fascist China?

It's an example of the debating strategy of saying X is very like Y, and we hate Y, so we should hate X. It's essentially a mixture of laziness in not just arguing directly about X and an element of name calling.

Yeah, I think that’s what makes me uncomfortable. It’s been misused in that way so much that even when it actually is a fair description it seems off.

Bewildered wrote: ↑

Sun May 24, 2020 3:07 am

I always thought a crucial part of fascism was harking back to supposed glory days of the past, and an attempt to reclaim them by strict military like order reinforcing the fabric of society. I think China would not be fascist for that reason.

Looking at Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism I don’t see this though, so it may just be me.

Nonetheless I do know that fascism was a term developed for the “far right” derived totalitarian type governments or promoters and not far left derived ones. The similarities between far right and fat left has often been commented on but “fascism” is not a term used for both, while things like “totalitarian” have been. Technically far right and far left are just labels as well but the regimes proponents and regimes of these ideologies viewed themselves as fundamentally distinct and most people can see this.

With the market reforms China instituted, making it less and less communist, the lines may have been blurred, but it still seems a leap, because it is still an authoritarian state that came into being espousing a left wing ideology and despite what you say I think there are remnants of that in the way the Chinese state views itself, the way others view it and the way it runs. I think in general calling it fascist, when that word does not feel right to people, just makes you like biased and puts people off what you are trying to say.

Xi Jinping has been playing the revisionist with Chinese history though, for example here

For example (just a tiny sliver of the article)

In giving his first China Dream speech in the Road to Revival exhibit—standing before photographs of Deng Xiaoping and a placard that reads “Taking the Path of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics”—Xi Jinping suggested that the formulation of dreams in the present and their realization in the future are predicated on overcoming the past.

China’s revival can only occur once that past, especially the “century of humiliation” during which China was cajoled by Western and Japanese imperialists, has been fully and properly put behind it. It is the story of that past and the overcoming that is narrated in Road to Revival.

The view of modern Chinese history presented at the National Museum of China may be retrograde and propagandistic, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore or dismiss it.

That the history of imperialism is still viewed as a burden to China’s emergence on the world scene, for instance, helps explain China’s recent provocations over the Diaoyu Islands and the South China Sea with its Asian neighbors.

It also reflects a longstanding proclivity to use historical narratives as a tool for political legitimization that is as much a product of the Confucian tradition as it is of Marxism-Leninism.