The War On Drugs

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jdc
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The War On Drugs

Post by jdc » Tue May 26, 2020 7:08 pm

19 minutes in here, we meet a former undercover cop: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p ... 1-turf-war

He infiltrated a drugs gang selling heroin and crack in Northampton, risking his life in the process. It was a 7-month operation which ended with the arrest of 6 gang leaders and 90 low-level street dealers.

A week later, his gaffer told him that thanks to this operation they'd managed to shut down the heroin and crack supply in Northampton for a full two hours. I'm not entirely sure it was worth him risking his life for that.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 26, 2020 7:27 pm

The entirety of the war on drugs is a senseless waste of lives.

It's a matter of record that it started in the USA to subjugate black people and harass counter-culture groups. But somewhere along the lines the powers that be have managed to indoctrinate even their own subordinates into believing, fervently, that jailing some addicts or burning a third-world farmer's crops is in some way beneficial to society, despite the mountain of evidence showing the exact opposite.

The lack of a mainstream political champion of replacing prohibition with regulation demonstrates how far we are from a situation where politicians feel able to follow evidence and their convictions rather than upholding the disastrous status quo.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 26, 2020 7:47 pm

I've long been persuaded that the most damaging aspect of illegal drugs is the illegal thing and not the drugs thing.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by discovolante » Tue May 26, 2020 7:48 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:27 pm
The entirety of the war on drugs is a senseless waste of lives.

It's a matter of record that it started in the USA to subjugate black people and harass counter-culture groups. But somewhere along the lines the powers that be have managed to indoctrinate even their own subordinates into believing, fervently, that jailing some addicts or burning a third-world farmer's crops is in some way beneficial to society, despite the mountain of evidence showing the exact opposite.

The lack of a mainstream political champion of replacing prohibition with regulation demonstrates how far we are from a situation where politicians feel able to follow evidence and their convictions rather than upholding the disastrous status quo.
I wonder what the legalization of cannabis will do to it in the long run. I genuinely do because I haven't been following it that much, but on the one hand, it seems a lack of regulation has sent things a bit too far the other way, but on the other, $$$. If I get round to educating myself on it I might post something more insightful in future...
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by discovolante » Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:47 pm
I've long been persuaded that the most damaging aspect of illegal drugs is the illegal thing and not the drugs thing.
I suppose one issue is, not all drugs are equally inherently dangerous, while also no drug is completely safe. But I genuinely find it hard to imagine that say, getting rid of alcohol and legalising ecstasy - with strong regulation and lots of education - would lead to worse outcomes on the whole. On the other hand I'd be less convinced by the same argument about cocaine. But it's still fairly difficult to have discussions like that.

ETA I suppose bars would have to make ecstasy really expensive though to make the same kind of profit they do on booze. Assuming the price of production etc ended up similar, which I don't know.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Martin Y » Tue May 26, 2020 8:00 pm

Well, I guess there's a bit of a balance to strike when you legalise and tax stuff people crave. If you don't tax it you get the 1740s gin craze, if you tax it too much you get smuggling and a black market anyway, as there is to some extent for cigs and booze, and of course if you prohibit it you get bootlegging, gangsters and the War on Drugs.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by discovolante » Tue May 26, 2020 8:45 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:00 pm
Well, I guess there's a bit of a balance to strike when you legalise and tax stuff people crave. If you don't tax it you get the 1740s gin craze, if you tax it too much you get smuggling and a black market anyway, as there is to some extent for cigs and booze, and of course if you prohibit it you get bootlegging, gangsters and the War on Drugs.
Sure, I'm just not sure where the balance is, and there is more to regulation than just tax as well of course.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by discovolante » Tue May 26, 2020 8:45 pm

Where is stever when you need him.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by bjn » Tue May 26, 2020 9:05 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:45 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:00 pm
Well, I guess there's a bit of a balance to strike when you legalise and tax stuff people crave. If you don't tax it you get the 1740s gin craze, if you tax it too much you get smuggling and a black market anyway, as there is to some extent for cigs and booze, and of course if you prohibit it you get bootlegging, gangsters and the War on Drugs.
Sure, I'm just not sure where the balance is, and there is more to regulation than just tax as well of course.
Interesting to see how legalisation of weed plays out for the Canucks.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by jdc » Tue May 26, 2020 11:13 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:45 pm
Where is stever when you need him.
Probably busy helping to write stuff like this on Heroin Assisted Treatment: https://transformdrugs.org/wp-content/u ... or-HAT.pdf
HAT involves prescribing heroin for supervised use in a clinic to people for whom other treatments have not worked (or for take-home use where appropriate). It substantially reduces consumption of illegal heroin, acquisitive crime to fund use, discarded needles and health problems including overdoses, deaths and HIV infections from needle sharing. It increases take-up and retention in treatment, and has a long history, including successful UK trials.
It took me a while to track down something where they'd got recommendations for the various illegals:
>Cannabis and opium sale and consumption: membership based coffee-shop style
licensed premises
> Cocaine powder, ecstasy and amphetamine: licensed pharmacy models and
licensed/named purchasers
> Psychedelics: drug clubs/groups for supervised use in licensed venues
> The riskiest drugs and preparations (including injectable drugs) most associated
with problematic/chronic dependent use: prescription/supervised use models
> Lower potency/risk drugs and preparations: a range of licensed sales models
From the exec summary: https://transformdrugs.org/wp-content/u ... ummary.pdf of this report: https://transformdrugs.org/product/afte ... egulation/

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue May 26, 2020 11:53 pm

Transform are excellent.

Another interesting group with a lot of good stuff to read on their website is Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (or 'Action Partnership') as they're calling themselves now.

They're primarily US-focussed (though that is the epicentre of the War on Drugs), but their global issues page has decent writeups of the Portuguese and Swiss approaches to drug use. https://lawenforcementactionpartnership ... al-issues/

I also thought Johann Hari's book Chasing the Scream was a good overview. I know he has a somewhat 'chequered' past, but for that book he meticulously cites sources and even provided audio of all his interviews. He's a skilful writer and manages to balance personal accounts and academic research quite neatly.

I should also mention In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts by Gabor Maté. It's a full overview of the science of addiction and its treatment, but also touches on the impacts of social policy and criminalisation. (I've not read it yet, but my sister who worked in this field rates it highly)
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by jdc » Wed May 27, 2020 12:03 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:27 pm
But somewhere along the lines the powers that be have managed to indoctrinate even their own subordinates into believing, fervently, that jailing some addicts or burning a third-world farmer's crops is in some way beneficial to society, despite the mountain of evidence showing the exact opposite.
Reminds me of something Misha Glenny wrote in McMafia:
Those involved in the War on Drugs develop an extraordinary zeal and determination to prosecute it, whatever the cost. I was shocked when the UN's Sandro Calvani, a biologist by background, confessed, “If somebody should tell me that they have found a new Agent Orange gas that kills all coca but damages the environment very heavily, I would consider it.”

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Martin_B » Wed May 27, 2020 12:18 am

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 pm
ETA I suppose bars would have to make ecstasy really expensive though to make the same kind of profit they do on booze. Assuming the price of production etc ended up similar, which I don't know.
Not the point of the thread, but bars don't make that much money on booze. All the bars are competing for the same booze-drinkers, and so they have to keep prices low. Bars make more money on food and soft drinks (the soft drink mark-up is huge).

Conversely, restaurants don't make much money on food; again, because they are competing for the same eaters, so have to price the food competitively. They make their money on alcohol, which is why wine in a restaurant is so expensive!
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 27, 2020 12:38 am

jdc wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:03 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:27 pm
But somewhere along the lines the powers that be have managed to indoctrinate even their own subordinates into believing, fervently, that jailing some addicts or burning a third-world farmer's crops is in some way beneficial to society, despite the mountain of evidence showing the exact opposite.
Reminds me of something Misha Glenny wrote in McMafia:
Those involved in the War on Drugs develop an extraordinary zeal and determination to prosecute it, whatever the cost. I was shocked when the UN's Sandro Calvani, a biologist by background, confessed, “If somebody should tell me that they have found a new Agent Orange gas that kills all coca but damages the environment very heavily, I would consider it.”
bl..dy hell. It's notable that coca is used by loads of indigenous people, but gets prohibited globally because it was new in the world of Europeans (including colonists). The steps taken against khat in the white world seem to me similarly based in at least xenophobia, if not racism.

The true purpose of the War on Drugs has always been racist oppression, as illustrated by quotes like this from Harry Anslinger, architect of the War on Drugs
Harry Anslinger wrote:Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men
or from Nixon's domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman:
John Erlichman wrote:"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities…We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."
I'm also sure it's no coincidence that the War's chief geopolitical impact has been US power projection in Latin America and Central Asia, nor that the black market creates opportunities for hidden funding of right-wing terrorists like the Contras, as emphasized by Gary Webb before he committed suicide by shooting himself twice in the back of the head.

The motivation outside of the US seems to be less overtly racist, but for various reasons the brunt of impacts fall on communities of colour everywhere which doubtless contributes to political apathy. But given prohibition's well-known detrimental effects on both drug users themselves and wider society, it's obvious that the War on Drugs is perpetuated as a tool of political control and class warfare rather than a sincere attempt to mitigate harms.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 27, 2020 12:41 am

As pointed out by, inter alia, pretty much every rapper ever.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed May 27, 2020 12:43 am

Also, McMafia sounds great. I think I'm gonna read it.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Millennie Al » Wed May 27, 2020 2:11 am

Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:00 pm
If you don't tax it you get the 1740s gin craze,
That seems to suggest that the gin craze was caused by the level of tax on gin, when in fact it was caused by the level of tax on brandy, licence costs, and various other measures deliberately designed to encourage the consumption of (English) gin.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by discovolante » Wed May 27, 2020 7:22 am

jdc wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 11:13 pm
discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 8:45 pm
Where is stever when you need him.
Probably busy helping to write stuff like this on Heroin Assisted Treatment: https://transformdrugs.org/wp-content/u ... or-HAT.pdf
HAT involves prescribing heroin for supervised use in a clinic to people for whom other treatments have not worked (or for take-home use where appropriate). It substantially reduces consumption of illegal heroin, acquisitive crime to fund use, discarded needles and health problems including overdoses, deaths and HIV infections from needle sharing. It increases take-up and retention in treatment, and has a long history, including successful UK trials.
It took me a while to track down something where they'd got recommendations for the various illegals:
>Cannabis and opium sale and consumption: membership based coffee-shop style
licensed premises
> Cocaine powder, ecstasy and amphetamine: licensed pharmacy models and
licensed/named purchasers
> Psychedelics: drug clubs/groups for supervised use in licensed venues
> The riskiest drugs and preparations (including injectable drugs) most associated
with problematic/chronic dependent use: prescription/supervised use models
> Lower potency/risk drugs and preparations: a range of licensed sales models
From the exec summary: https://transformdrugs.org/wp-content/u ... ummary.pdf of this report: https://transformdrugs.org/product/afte ... egulation/
Thanks for these links, I will try and have a look through them later.

And BOAF too, sorry just to avoid this post turning into nothing but one long quote of other people's posts.

ETA oh wait is that the blueprint from 2009? I did read it at the time but that was over a decade ago so I have forgotten absolutely everything in it. I'll have to see if they have updated anything after the changes in the law in the US and Canada re cannabis.
Martin_B wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:18 am
discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 pm
ETA I suppose bars would have to make ecstasy really expensive though to make the same kind of profit they do on booze. Assuming the price of production etc ended up similar, which I don't know.
Not the point of the thread, but bars don't make that much money on booze. All the bars are competing for the same booze-drinkers, and so they have to keep prices low. Bars make more money on food and soft drinks (the soft drink mark-up is huge).

Conversely, restaurants don't make much money on food; again, because they are competing for the same eaters, so have to price the food competitively. They make their money on alcohol, which is why wine in a restaurant is so expensive!
I was thinking more of bars as in bars and clubs, rather than pubs - where food isn't particularly central if in existence at all (no need for a hot pie machine perched on the side, just a jug of water and a few glasses). Although I suppose clubs tend to charge an entry fee, but then that is because they have live acts that need paying for as well.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by jdc » Wed May 27, 2020 1:27 pm

Yeah, it's the 2009 one Disco. I did try looking for something a bit more recent but that seemed to be the one that contained references to their recommendations for cocaine, ecstasy etc. They've more recent stuff for cannabis and for heroin & crack.

@boaf McMafia's well worth reading. Glenny basically goes everywhere, talks to everyone, and looks at every illegal industry; there's interviews with police, gangsters, victims; there's stuff about the effect of political, social, and economic changes around the world on organised crime (from conflict in the Balkans to the end of apartheid in South Africa); he looks at everything from gun running and drug distribution to cybercrime and people smuggling/trafficking. It was written a fair while ago but the version I've got has an update from 2017.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by plebian » Wed May 27, 2020 4:30 pm

discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:47 pm
I've long been persuaded that the most damaging aspect of illegal drugs is the illegal thing and not the drugs thing.
I suppose one issue is, not all drugs are equally inherently dangerous, while also no drug is completely safe. But I genuinely find it hard to imagine that say, getting rid of alcohol and legalising ecstasy - with strong regulation and lots of education - would lead to worse outcomes on the whole. On the other hand I'd be less convinced by the same argument about cocaine. But it's still fairly difficult to have discussions like that.

ETA I suppose bars would have to make ecstasy really expensive though to make the same kind of profit they do on booze. Assuming the price of production etc ended up similar, which I don't know.
In the noughties at least, they were being produced at pennies per pill. The consumer price was based on scarcity and volatility of supply
Pharma quality production costs would nudge that up a bit but as with alcohol and fuel, the biggest cost will be the duty applied.
Having said this, prices of £10 or more per pill were born by the market so a licenced supply at twice that wouldn't be outrageous considering a pill lasts hours (during which spending 20 quid on drinks would be quite normal on a night out).

What's most exciting to me about legalisation is the product development that is driven by demand as with any market. We've seen this in the US with weed vapes, edibles and strains. This means innovation in delivery methods, purity, side effect minimisation, harm reduction etc. will all be worked on, making better, safer recreational products. You'd have detailed high production instructional videos on how to take the stuff and safely. Develop antidote substances to help prevent overdose. Hell how about a time release antihigh that binds to the intoxicant and sobers you up after a fixed time.

I seem to recall there is legislation preventing at least the marketing of products that prevent or minimise the symptoms of hangover. Hopefully the separateness of currently illegal substances would exempt them from similar curtailment.

It's a way off but just think of the possibilities of real research was being conducted into the best way to get off your trolley.

There is little drive to innovate when your customer base is beholden to a limited supply network.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by dyqik » Thu May 28, 2020 2:20 am

plebian wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:30 pm

What's most exciting to me about legalisation is the product development that is driven by demand as with any market. We've seen this in the US with weed vapes, edibles and strains.
One thing I've noticed here in MA since legalization in 2016, and more so since legal sales started in 2018/19, is that there's less smell of pot being smoked in the air now.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by plebian » Thu May 28, 2020 9:58 pm

That may be local. The places I was in in Seattle and Portland had pockets of stank.

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by nekomatic » Fri May 29, 2020 1:20 am

Move-a… side, and let the mango through… let the mango through

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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by discovolante » Fri May 29, 2020 11:59 am

plebian wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 4:30 pm
discovolante wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:52 pm
Martin Y wrote:
Tue May 26, 2020 7:47 pm
I've long been persuaded that the most damaging aspect of illegal drugs is the illegal thing and not the drugs thing.
I suppose one issue is, not all drugs are equally inherently dangerous, while also no drug is completely safe. But I genuinely find it hard to imagine that say, getting rid of alcohol and legalising ecstasy - with strong regulation and lots of education - would lead to worse outcomes on the whole. On the other hand I'd be less convinced by the same argument about cocaine. But it's still fairly difficult to have discussions like that.

ETA I suppose bars would have to make ecstasy really expensive though to make the same kind of profit they do on booze. Assuming the price of production etc ended up similar, which I don't know.
In the noughties at least, they were being produced at pennies per pill. The consumer price was based on scarcity and volatility of supply
Pharma quality production costs would nudge that up a bit but as with alcohol and fuel, the biggest cost will be the duty applied.
Having said this, prices of £10 or more per pill were born by the market so a licenced supply at twice that wouldn't be outrageous considering a pill lasts hours (during which spending 20 quid on drinks would be quite normal on a night out).

What's most exciting to me about legalisation is the product development that is driven by demand as with any market. We've seen this in the US with weed vapes, edibles and strains. This means innovation in delivery methods, purity, side effect minimisation, harm reduction etc. will all be worked on, making better, safer recreational products. You'd have detailed high production instructional videos on how to take the stuff and safely. Develop antidote substances to help prevent overdose. Hell how about a time release antihigh that binds to the intoxicant and sobers you up after a fixed time.

I seem to recall there is legislation preventing at least the marketing of products that prevent or minimise the symptoms of hangover. Hopefully the separateness of currently illegal substances would exempt them from similar curtailment.

It's a way off but just think of the possibilities of real research was being conducted into the best way to get off your trolley.

There is little drive to innovate when your customer base is beholden to a limited supply network.
Sorry I know this isn't taking the discussion much further, but purely anecdotally when I go to clubs where ecstasy use is prevalent, the tables tend to be covered in half drunk glasses of water rather than alcoholic drinks. I'm not saying people don't drink alcohol, but I'm sure use must be a lot lower. And to be honest if ecstasy was legalised I am not sure I'd want to see it sold alongside alcohol.

I think David Nutt was trying to develop a chemical that gets you drunk but without a hangover, not sure what happened with that though. I can see the pros and cons.
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Re: The War On Drugs

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri May 29, 2020 12:45 pm

I think there's a fair argument for limiting which recreational drugs can be sold in the same place (for consumption on the premises), if those drugs can interact. As a trivial example coffee weed shops in the Netherlands don't also sell alcohol, although there are bars that allow weed smoking and coincidentally have a weed shop right next door.

Clubs where lots of attendees are mashed off their tits on ecstacy pipes seem to be able to make enough money from entrance fees, cloak rooms etc. Add in charging £X for a pill that costs pennies to make and they'd probably be viable. Water should be free, obviously, and having some official medical-type person who'll help you if you're having a bad time rather than throw you out into the street at 3am in the rain would make those venues an attractive place to be.

I'm not sure what the model I'd suggest for cocaine. Obviously people like doing it on a night out, but I can't envisage what a specifically cocaine venue would be like (other than really f.cking annoying).
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