US police & murders of black men

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secret squirrel
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by secret squirrel » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:49 pm

For the last few years the Right have been feverishly creating fake Antifa accounts on Twitter and using them to post extreme stuff for each other to get mad at.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by dyqik » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:16 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:44 pm
According to Trump: That 75-year old that was pushed and hit his head was apparently an Antifa provocateur...

Incredibly he claimed he fell "harder than he was pushed" and that he was using some kind of device to tamper with police communication equipment.

FFS
And retweeted a video from the far-right OANN network, featuring a "reporter" who also appears on Russian state propaganda TV channel Sputnik, in that same tweet.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by individualmember » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Someone put this up on a local basefook group https://youtu.be/4yrg7vV4a5o

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:47 pm

individualmember wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:57 pm
Someone put this up on a local basefook group https://youtu.be/4yrg7vV4a5o
Yup. Says it all. And I've seen comments by people she taught saying how she changed their attitudes
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by dyqik » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:44 pm

Apparently Stephen Miller is writing a speech on racial unity for Trump to give.

Y'know, the Stephen Miller whose family wrote an article denouncing him as a white supremacist.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:45 pm

dyqik wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:44 pm
Apparently Stephen Miller is writing a speech on racial unity for Trump to give.

Y'know, the Stephen Miller whose family wrote an article denouncing him as a white supremacist.
Is it possible he misunderstood the "racial unity" brief?

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by FlammableFlower » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:49 pm

Well, I'm sure it'll be just fine...

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by tom p » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:11 am

Martin Y wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:45 pm
dyqik wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:44 pm
Apparently Stephen Miller is writing a speech on racial unity for Trump to give.

Y'know, the Stephen Miller whose family wrote an article denouncing him as a white supremacist.
Is it possible he misunderstood the "racial unity" brief?
Stephen Miller's idea of racial unity is whites united against blacks and latinos

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by individualmember » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:35 am

This morning I’ve seen this response on a public forum to the cancelling of the US tv show COPS. I think it speaks to how targeting of black people by the police is perceived and how those perceptions can build up to a point where an incident can trigger nationwide demonstrations and rioting.
COPS - Cancel Culture
So, I hear COPS got cancelled. I may have actually worked on that show once, briefly -- I may not. There was this one show I worked on for a few days that might have been it. I literally don't remember. Whatever it was: a) It wasn't much of a memorable experience, b) It didn't last long.
But back in the day for a couple of years I did work on a bunch of shows that were very similar, in a few cases not just cops catching people but cops literally killing people. What we were doing was a step superior to "Mondo Cane" and "Faces of Death" because... a) We had a bigger budget, b) We were doing it for a mainstream network, c) We reassured the audience that the dead guys were irreversibly evil, d) The police had no other option, and e) The hail of gunfire, while "unfortunate" saved lives.
This little repeated sequence: "The police had no choice but to..." followed by 7500 bullets, a moment of silence, half a second of post-mortem music, and finally some remarkably informative voice over: "And the gun-toting maniac goes down..."
There was absolutely no effort made to verify whether the police really had 'no another choice' -- no research, no phone calls, nothing -- but you didn't need verification. You're sitting there in the edit bay doing long days watching and re-watching from multiple angles the same steps toward doom: police arrive, agitate their target, escalate the situation, create confusion with conflicting commands... boom. (boom boom boom etc) Generally the police had not only a choice but a whole panoply of them. A more appropriate VO would have been: "The editors had no choice but to drop this slightly altered same-as-last-segment hackneyed voice-over celebrating the unassailably brilliant actions of the officers." I mean we were getting our footage from police departments all over the country, our advisors were former law enforcement, and they have an authoritative say-so over the content. But at least we reassured everyone with a closing card: "All the dead are presumed innocent unless they manage climb out of the morgue."
That was the period when a friend of mine was fighting a losing battle with brain cancer. We were best friends in high school, and I used to fly out of state to go see him on the weekends, first at his home, then in the hospital, and later in hospice. One time I went to see him and his mother. By then he was conscious for maybe an hour per day. I met her at the house, and she wanted to drive. She was originally from Europe, very formal, never swore, laughed uncomfortably at the clang of American directness. She wasn't religious, just formal, always careful with her choice of words, very nervous, and had a sly sense of humor you had to listen for or you'd miss it. She'd raised an only son who was among the smartest kids in our high school. People talked about how decent he was years before he was ever sick; the admiring phrases fit for eulogies was what we said about him when he was young and healthy.
One time after we graduated college I once asked him, "You have this approach to life that assumes the best of people, and you're always careful and respectful, and I don't get it. If I did that, I'd be screwed. And yet somehow with you people don't take advantage of you. What the hell?" We laughed about that.
"Actually," he said, "they do. But I'm working on it."
So now it's years later, and I'm sitting in the car with his mother, and she hasn't turned the ignition yet. She's silent. I'm silent. A pause before going to the hospice. Finally she shudders. "It's a damn thing. It's just a DAMN thing".
So we'd sit with him, and basically that was the weekend. And then I'd return Monday to the 12-hour-plus days trying patch together narratives out of police dash cams, blurred video, crap audio, adding gun shots, music stings, zoom-n-crops.
My distinctive contribution was to do my own VOs, use needle-drops in a way that would excite network execs, and cobbled together faster than others, and with almost no network changes. I'd find ways to give a kind of zing to the pieces that were almost moving -- maybe a subversive undertone that vaguely called attention to a possible alternate read on the "bad guy". The networks ate it up. They called it "outside the box", but really it was slight nudge on a crease of a very stiff box. For that I was considered "indispensable". Later they replaced the VOs with a tone-deaf read and boiler plate music. They actually apologized for that. But that process worked: A better-than-expected approval cut, and a trashed up finishing session that went to air, everyone happy. If there were an emmy for this, I'd want it to read, "Most Nuanced, Fastest Cutting, Fewest-Network-Notes Snuff TV Editor" with a big bronze middle finger instead of a gold statuette. I did, in fact, get a reward: they paid for lunch and have it delivered to the edit bay. Translation: "We know you're getting our terrible segments quickly, but if we can keep you here THROUGH lunch, we'll get that much more productivity out of you." Network primetime TV -- non-union job.
The lunch plan backfired spectacularly: The segment producers got jealous. "How come you're buying him lunch and not the producers?" They mistook $8 - 12 lunches as an honor, when it was really just a calculated buy-off. So with that I had to start paying my own lunches again, and taking an hour off. I win either way :\ Who needs the Editor's Guild...
Anyhow, I used to edit as fast as possible during the day and slog to the parking lot in tears, not because of the footage. I understand morbid curiosity, particularly for kids, who I suspect were our target audience. Whether you're horrified by that curiosity or you willfully indulge it -- I get it. I don't think people should feel guilty about it. Better to be honest about it and work your way through the implications of your sensibilities. You find yourself feeling half a dozen different ways about death-by-cop footage on the same day, regarding the same moment.
But these shows were ghoul festivals celebrating the destruction of mostly minorities, along with a smattering of trailer white folks to signify diversity, all getting blasted out of existence to maximum schadenfreude. Behind the scenes we're all twisting ourselves into narrative knots spinning this crap into blatantly false morality tales extolling the virtues of clearly objectively, verifiably sadistic cops.
The guy who ran the company bent over backwards to put his imprimatur on each segment: his repeated existential struggle over the proper use of definite and indefinite articles. "Should that VO use an 'a' or a 'the'?" For some reason it's really common in Hollywood for producers and show runners conflate anguish over high school grammar with the hard-won creative input. One time I passed the company owner in the hall as he was talking to a bunch of other employees. "Ed," he said, "I just want to say you're doing a terrific job, I mean-- the work you do is so-- I think of you as an artist. If I could trade places with you I would."
"Hey," I said, "If you want to sit in the bay with the squeaking chair, I'll be just fine in the big room with the fancy leather one." Everyone laughed, which made me think it wasn't, politically, the wisest comeback.
Here's my thoughts on snuff films and crime p.rn in general: go ahead and make 'em. Sure. But it should be illegal to reap windfall profits
There was some combination of the intensity and focus of the long edit days followed by this sudden release at 10pm, walking into the empty five story parking lot, the sudden enveloping reminder that my best friend from high school had months, then weeks, then days left to live.
One day one of the producers stopped me in the hall. He wasn't my immediate producer, just the charge of keeping things on schedule and under budget. "Hey man, you got a moment? I just wanted you to know I know what you're going through. My dad died of stomach cancer a few years back." He shared a number of harrowing details, and you could tell he was still struggling with it. "I understand-- I think we all understand if you have to take a day of and just, uh.... I just want you know to know we're all here for you." He was sincere. An unexpectedly human moment, followed by a long pause.
I remember in the moment thinking how I hadn't asked for any time off or shared with them, god forbid, any personal emotions. I imagine they heard me on the phone booking flights which must have scared the b'jeezus out of someone: "Down time? On a phone call?" Someone must have asked why I was doing something other than editing, and I told them enough about the situation to "justify" booking a flight while at work. So we stood there in the hallway in comfortable silence until he broke it: "Just so you know, though, we really are on a tight schedule." He was sincere about that too.
I remember the day I left the company. There were two senior producers standing with me out on the sidewalk trying to convince me to stay. "I don't understand. You've got the glowing support of one of the top production company owners in Hollywood." I remember thinking (not saying), "Seriously? This passes for a 'top' production company?" Indeed it did: they made huge, enviable sums of money.
So I just heard COPS was cancelled. That's what reminded me of this whole thing. Haven't thought about it in years. I only ever watched a few episodes of that show, and possibly edited a few for all I remember. On the few occasions I caught it on TV, I immediately recognized that unmistakable contorted morality grasping for legitimacy. Like the money's not enough. They want icing on that cake -- "higher purpose". Sorry, it's just p.rn. Own it. Apologies to anyone else who put their time into such shows or made a career of it. We all need make a living. But that series, and my series, and the countless other series about cops and justice -- selling tough-on-crime themes while pocketing millions, they're crap.
Good riddance. But thanks for the free grilled tuna sandwiches... How about some reparations -- not for me -- but for everyone on the beating end of the tough-on-crime era. Yank the funds directly from the bank accounts of the show creators and networks.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:53 pm

Opinion piece by a black former Detroit Police Chief

Highlighting absolutely shocking racism he saw over his career.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... 341884002/
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Fishnut » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:01 pm

jimbob wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Opinion piece by a black former Detroit Police Chief

Highlighting absolutely shocking racism he saw over his career.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... 341884002/
That really is appalling racism. I'm surprised, however, at how, well, weak his recommendations are.
►Require higher aptitude and fitness standards for incoming recruits.

►Require regular mental health checkups to deal with the stress and challenges of law enforcement.

►Develop a nationwide database of all officers to prevent bad officers from jumping departments to avoid marks on their permanent record.

►Stop promoting officers to become supervisors who have multiple disciplinary complaints, particularly, to positions of first-line leaders like sergeants and lieutenants.

►Rehabilitation within police unions. Their intransigence makes it almost impossible to fire and hold officers accountable for breaking the law and the public’s trust.
I'm not sure what aptitude or fitness has to do with institutional racism and police brutality. Smart people can be racist too. While I'm all for encouraging better mental health and reducing the stigma around mental illness, these guys aren't beating up black people because they're stressed. A database only helps if officers are resigning and moving jobs rather than facing the consequences of misconduct. But that's not happening. Instead, officers are fired, then get rehired.

What seems to be missing is anything about de-escalation training or de-mitilarisation.
it's okay to say "I don't know"

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:07 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:01 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Opinion piece by a black former Detroit Police Chief

Highlighting absolutely shocking racism he saw over his career.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... 341884002/
That really is appalling racism. I'm surprised, however, at how, well, weak his recommendations are.
►Require higher aptitude and fitness standards for incoming recruits.

►Require regular mental health checkups to deal with the stress and challenges of law enforcement.

►Develop a nationwide database of all officers to prevent bad officers from jumping departments to avoid marks on their permanent record.

►Stop promoting officers to become supervisors who have multiple disciplinary complaints, particularly, to positions of first-line leaders like sergeants and lieutenants.

►Rehabilitation within police unions. Their intransigence makes it almost impossible to fire and hold officers accountable for breaking the law and the public’s trust.
I'm not sure what aptitude or fitness has to do with institutional racism and police brutality. Smart people can be racist too. While I'm all for encouraging better mental health and reducing the stigma around mental illness, these guys aren't beating up black people because they're stressed. A database only helps if officers are resigning and moving jobs rather than facing the consequences of misconduct. But that's not happening. Instead, officers are fired, then get rehired.

What seems to be missing is anything about de-escalation training or de-mitilarisation.
Yup they should be basic pre-conditions for anything.

But, no... There is a reason why I've been saying that US policing needs a complete overhall.
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Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by tom p » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:05 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:01 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Opinion piece by a black former Detroit Police Chief

Highlighting absolutely shocking racism he saw over his career.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... 341884002/
That really is appalling racism. I'm surprised, however, at how, well, weak his recommendations are.
►Require higher aptitude and fitness standards for incoming recruits.

►Require regular mental health checkups to deal with the stress and challenges of law enforcement.

►Develop a nationwide database of all officers to prevent bad officers from jumping departments to avoid marks on their permanent record.

►Stop promoting officers to become supervisors who have multiple disciplinary complaints, particularly, to positions of first-line leaders like sergeants and lieutenants.

►Rehabilitation within police unions. Their intransigence makes it almost impossible to fire and hold officers accountable for breaking the law and the public’s trust.
I'm not sure what aptitude or fitness has to do with institutional racism and police brutality. Smart people can be racist too. While I'm all for encouraging better mental health and reducing the stigma around mental illness, these guys aren't beating up black people because they're stressed. A database only helps if officers are resigning and moving jobs rather than facing the consequences of misconduct. But that's not happening. Instead, officers are fired, then get rehired.

What seems to be missing is anything about de-escalation training or de-mitilarisation.
Partly they may be beating people up because they are stressed, and those people are black because they are racist.
Both prongs need tackling.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by dyqik » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:33 pm

Maybe not so much the beating up part, but the shooting without warnings, shooting the wrong people, and shooting people because they imagined they had a gun could realistically be affected by stress.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by tom p » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:54 am

Fishnut wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:01 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Opinion piece by a black former Detroit Police Chief

Highlighting absolutely shocking racism he saw over his career.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... 341884002/
That really is appalling racism. I'm surprised, however, at how, well, weak his recommendations are.
►Require higher aptitude and fitness standards for incoming recruits.

►Require regular mental health checkups to deal with the stress and challenges of law enforcement.

►Develop a nationwide database of all officers to prevent bad officers from jumping departments to avoid marks on their permanent record.

►Stop promoting officers to become supervisors who have multiple disciplinary complaints, particularly, to positions of first-line leaders like sergeants and lieutenants.

►Rehabilitation within police unions. Their intransigence makes it almost impossible to fire and hold officers accountable for breaking the law and the public’s trust.
I'm not sure what aptitude or fitness has to do with institutional racism and police brutality. Smart people can be racist too. While I'm all for encouraging better mental health and reducing the stigma around mental illness, these guys aren't beating up black people because they're stressed. A database only helps if officers are resigning and moving jobs rather than facing the consequences of misconduct. But that's not happening. Instead, officers are fired, then get rehired.

What seems to be missing is anything about de-escalation training or de-mitilarisation.
Having just read the article properly, I think you missed an important line before his recommendations, fishnut: "Here's what we must do to get started"
He's listing the low-hanging fruit - measures that can be implemented almost immediately/that nobody could realistically disagree with (although the rehabilitation with the unions will presumably be a long-term thing). Not saying that's all that should be done.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Boustrophedon » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:13 am

Having read probably too many accounts for my own good, of police killings in the US, I can only conclude that a section of the male population like killing other people and in all probability they know this about themselves and join the police to enable them to do so.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Fishnut » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:02 am

tom p wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:54 am
Fishnut wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:01 pm
jimbob wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:53 pm
Opinion piece by a black former Detroit Police Chief

Highlighting absolutely shocking racism he saw over his career.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2 ... 341884002/
That really is appalling racism. I'm surprised, however, at how, well, weak his recommendations are.
►Require higher aptitude and fitness standards for incoming recruits.

►Require regular mental health checkups to deal with the stress and challenges of law enforcement.

►Develop a nationwide database of all officers to prevent bad officers from jumping departments to avoid marks on their permanent record.

►Stop promoting officers to become supervisors who have multiple disciplinary complaints, particularly, to positions of first-line leaders like sergeants and lieutenants.

►Rehabilitation within police unions. Their intransigence makes it almost impossible to fire and hold officers accountable for breaking the law and the public’s trust.
I'm not sure what aptitude or fitness has to do with institutional racism and police brutality. Smart people can be racist too. While I'm all for encouraging better mental health and reducing the stigma around mental illness, these guys aren't beating up black people because they're stressed. A database only helps if officers are resigning and moving jobs rather than facing the consequences of misconduct. But that's not happening. Instead, officers are fired, then get rehired.

What seems to be missing is anything about de-escalation training or de-mitilarisation.
Having just read the article properly, I think you missed an important line before his recommendations, fishnut: "Here's what we must do to get started"
He's listing the low-hanging fruit - measures that can be implemented almost immediately/that nobody could realistically disagree with (although the rehabilitation with the unions will presumably be a long-term thing). Not saying that's all that should be done.
I'm aware that they are 'first steps' proposals. I still think they are weak. There are campaigns such as 8 Can't Wait that have much more goal-oriented solutions that can be implemented without any legislation changes and that have been shown to reduce the use of violence by police officers. The proposals listed in the article have no clear outcomes - they might change attitudes but if they don't also change outcomes then it just means that you've got an officer killing you slightly more politely.

As a comparison, the 8 Can't Wait proposals (and there are others out there, and these are explicitly just a starting point for more fundamental reform of the police) are:
  • ban chokeholds and strangleholds
  • require de-escalation
  • require warning before shooting
  • require officers to exhaust all alternatives before shooting
  • require officers to intervene if they see a colleague using excessive force
  • ban shooting at moving vehicles
  • require a Use of Force continuum that restricts the most severe types of force to the most extreme situations and creates clear policy restrictions on the use of each police weapon and tactic.
  • Require officers to report each time they use force or threaten to use force against civilians.
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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by tom p » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:26 am

    I agree, those are much more practical and likely to produce faster results, although I suspect that the 6th & 8th would meet with a lot of resistance.
    I think that those suggestions should be implemented in concert with his to start producing both immediate and medium-term results.
    Also demilitarise the cops and ban no-knock and then there's a starting point for police forces that look like those in a civilised country

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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by Millennie Al » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:16 pm

    Fishnut wrote:
    Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:02 am
    As a comparison, the 8 Can't Wait proposals (and there are others out there, and these are explicitly just a starting point for more fundamental reform of the police) are:
    • ban chokeholds and strangleholds
    • require de-escalation
    • require warning before shooting
    • require officers to exhaust all alternatives before shooting
    • require officers to intervene if they see a colleague using excessive force
    • ban shooting at moving vehicles
    • require a Use of Force continuum that restricts the most severe types of force to the most extreme situations and creates clear policy restrictions on the use of each police weapon and tactic.
    • Require officers to report each time they use force or threaten to use force against civilians.
    According to https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... d-violence some of those have been implemented and shown to be ineffective.

    Accordingly, I would suggest drastic measures are needed:

    Any police office who kills someone loses their job. This is regardless of how justified it was. If it was justified (and, in principle, sometimes it will be a case of the hero cop saves dozens of people from a rampaging terrorist, so very justified), the cop can be given a pension or lump sum in compensation, but can never serve again. This brings to bear a selection pressure which should drastically the number of people killed.

    Every so often (e.g. annually) each cop must perform a "mystery shopper" like exercise. They go to a distant location where they are unknown to the local law enforcement and act in a scene, not known in advance to local law enforcement, which requires them to be arrested while being beligerent and resisting arrest. If the arresting officers realise it is an exercise, this is a fail for the actor. The whole operation is recorded and the arresting officers' performance is assessed. If inadequate, appropriate action is taken, up to dismissal for repeated failures. The knowledge that at any time an officer might be the target of such an exercise should make them much more reluctant to use deadly force or even behave inappropriately. The experience of being the actor should help make each officer be more sympathetic to the members of the public that they deal with.

    From the article I mentioned, it seems the main obstacle is that cops know that they can almost always get away with misconduct, and this then reinforces what is acceptable as each sees what their peers do and considers that normal.

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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:05 am

    I also think that the calls to 'defund' the police - in other words to shift funding to other, non-violent specialised forces that help to maintain order in society - have a lot of merit. Community treatment for mental health. Social workers and a sincere attempt to help the homeless. Generally addressing inequality and social immobility.

    Police violence is also a symptom of deeper problems in society.
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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by EACLucifer » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:41 am

    Bird on a Fire wrote:
    Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:05 am
    I also think that the calls to 'defund' the police - in other words to shift funding to other, non-violent specialised forces that help to maintain order in society - have a lot of merit. Community treatment for mental health. Social workers and a sincere attempt to help the homeless. Generally addressing inequality and social immobility.
    Congratulations on finding the one reform Americans overwhelmingly reject. This includes African-Americans, who reject it 29-49.

    And plenty of nations manage police services without the scale of problems seen in the USA, and indeed variation between American police forces is significant. Getting the police accountable and restricting their use of violence can be implemented far quicker than any other approach, and people need reform right now.
    Police violence is also a symptom of deeper problems in society.
    That's true, but it it doesn't mean that one is entirely because of the other. Totally rebuilding the USA into a high trust society won't happen overnight, or at all without a whole raft of measures. It's important to get the basics done as quickly as possible, then follow up. There's a reason Deray's 8 proposals are called "8 Can't Wait"

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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by secret squirrel » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:49 am

    EACLucifer wrote:
    Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:41 am
    Bird on a Fire wrote:
    Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:05 am
    I also think that the calls to 'defund' the police - in other words to shift funding to other, non-violent specialised forces that help to maintain order in society - have a lot of merit. Community treatment for mental health. Social workers and a sincere attempt to help the homeless. Generally addressing inequality and social immobility.
    Congratulations on finding the one reform Americans overwhelmingly reject. This includes African-Americans, who reject it 29-49...
    Although to be fair, the policy 'defund the police' as BoaF describes it is pretty much the previous policy in the poll, which has slightly more people in favour than against.

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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by discovolante » Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:09 am

    secret squirrel wrote:
    Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:49 am
    EACLucifer wrote:
    Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:41 am
    Bird on a Fire wrote:
    Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:05 am
    I also think that the calls to 'defund' the police - in other words to shift funding to other, non-violent specialised forces that help to maintain order in society - have a lot of merit. Community treatment for mental health. Social workers and a sincere attempt to help the homeless. Generally addressing inequality and social immobility.
    Congratulations on finding the one reform Americans overwhelmingly reject. This includes African-Americans, who reject it 29-49...
    Although to be fair, the policy 'defund the police' as BoaF describes it is pretty much the previous policy in the poll, which has slightly more people in favour than against.
    Yes and
    HuffPost also found most people understand the slogan to mean significant reductions in police budgets, rather than the more radical meaning of complete abolition that was proposed by activists in Minneapolis
    It could be a bit premature to come to conclusions about what people may want in the long term when we are talking about a concept that has really only been introduced to the mainstream in a big way within the last month (or so I understand that to be the case, correct me if I'm wrong). Whether the conditions are right to lead to a bigger shift one way or the other is a different matter.
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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:15 am

    Yes, they probably need to come up with a different name, because poorly informed people keep confusing 'defund' with 'abolish entirely' (and no doubt that confusion is aided by right-wing media misinformation).

    The 8 Can't Wait proposals are an obvious good start, but bear in mind that e.g. chokeholds were already prohibited by the NYPD and they still decided not to prosecute the cops who choked Eric Garner to death. They have the power to ignore the rules, so making new rules (let alone guidelines, or training items) isn't actually going to achieve anything without simultaneously addressing those power structures.
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    Re: US police & murders of black men

    Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:34 am

    Here's an article on what the ACLU mean by 'defund the police', for example.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/monicamelt ... faa2342f92
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