US police & murders of black men

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EACLucifer
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Sun May 31, 2020 1:25 pm

dyqik wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:12 pm
Bewildered wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:50 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 9:09 pm
Thought-provoking piece by activist Michael Render (aka rapper Killer Mike), arguing that black people should also arm themselves and train in firearm use.

https://www.colorlines.com/articles/bla ... ment-op-ed

I normally think the USA needs fewer guns, not more. But if any group has a claim to needing guns to protect against tyranny in the USA it's black people. The police response to peaceful protests is completely different when protestors are armed.

And as we saw with Reagan in the 60s, at the very least if black people are also armed Republicans start supporting gun control.
Not sure, I am worried it would give the police more excuses to harrass blacks people and more excuses to shoot first think later.
I don't think that more excuses would make any practical difference. They already have enough excuses, and judicial rulings to allow them.
This. And American law enforcement are wary of picking fights with armed people.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by JQH » Sun May 31, 2020 2:44 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:25 pm
dyqik wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:12 pm
Bewildered wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:50 am


Not sure, I am worried it would give the police more excuses to harrass blacks people and more excuses to shoot first think later.
I don't think that more excuses would make any practical difference. They already have enough excuses, and judicial rulings to allow them.
This. And American law enforcement are wary of picking fights with armed people.
As representatives in the Michigan State Legislature can attest.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by shpalman » Sun May 31, 2020 4:55 pm

https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/12 ... 74370?s=09

National Guard marches through a quiet residential neighborhood in #Minneapolis, screaming at citizens to get inside.

Soldiers stop to point their guns at residents on their balcony.

They yell “LIGHT THEM UP” as they fire riot control rounds at them.
https://t.co/NAsCxmeBlp

A reporter interviews a #Minneapolis nurse who was working at the medical tent, treating a man bleeding badly from a rubber bullet wound.

Military police opened fire on the nurses, storming their tent. “I told him I wouldn’t leave him, I feel so bad” 😔 https://t.co/H0RpwwCdgD

Ali Veshi and his CNN crew come under fire from #Minneapolis police with tear gas and rubber bullets.

“There was absolutely no provocation. The police just drove up, split the crowd in two and started firing in both directions.” https://t.co/GTXKU1fTdz

A WCCO reporter is arrested for filming the #Minneapolis police.

He clearly identifies himself and asks them where he is supposed to go. “GET ON THE GROUND!” they shout at him as he backs up trying to get out of their way. https://t.co/Yx0y2dgV5g

It just keeps going
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Sun May 31, 2020 5:08 pm

shpalman wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:55 pm
https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/12 ... 74370?s=09

National Guard marches through a quiet residential neighborhood in #Minneapolis, screaming at citizens to get inside.

Soldiers stop to point their guns at residents on their balcony.

They yell “LIGHT THEM UP” as they fire riot control rounds at them.
https://t.co/NAsCxmeBlp

A reporter interviews a #Minneapolis nurse who was working at the medical tent, treating a man bleeding badly from a rubber bullet wound.

Military police opened fire on the nurses, storming their tent. “I told him I wouldn’t leave him, I feel so bad” 😔 https://t.co/H0RpwwCdgD

Ali Veshi and his CNN crew come under fire from #Minneapolis police with tear gas and rubber bullets.

“There was absolutely no provocation. The police just drove up, split the crowd in two and started firing in both directions.” https://t.co/GTXKU1fTdz

A WCCO reporter is arrested for filming the #Minneapolis police.

He clearly identifies himself and asks them where he is supposed to go. “GET ON THE GROUND!” they shout at him as he backs up trying to get out of their way. https://t.co/Yx0y2dgV5g

It just keeps going
1) They really don't want people documenting what they are doing, do they?

2) This is what they'll do when they know there's a camera on them. What will they be up to if they don't think they are being watched?

Greg Doucette's doing a thread catalogueing just some of the violence by police. The sheer amount of unprovoked and out of the blue police violence is appalling.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Sun May 31, 2020 7:46 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:08 pm
Greg Doucette's doing a thread catalogueing just some of the violence by police. The sheer amount of unprovoked and out of the blue police violence is appalling.
The takeaway lesson seems increasingly clear: If you want to exercise your constitutional rights, choose with care, since some amendments are more equal than others.

Second amendment: go right ahead.
First amendment: pepper spray and batons.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Woodchopper » Sun May 31, 2020 7:51 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:46 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:08 pm
Greg Doucette's doing a thread catalogueing just some of the violence by police. The sheer amount of unprovoked and out of the blue police violence is appalling.
The takeaway lesson seems increasingly clear: If you want to exercise your constitutional rights, choose with care, since some amendments are more equal than others.

Second amendment: go right ahead.
First amendment: pepper spray and batons.
Though the 2nd amendment one only applies to white people.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Sun May 31, 2020 7:55 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:38 am
Martin Y wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:58 pm
I'm going to be horrified beyond belief if this turns out to be a case of Toronto police deciding to throw a woman off her 24th floor balcony rather than the woman choosing to do it herself. But on the other hand I absolutely do not expect it to turn out to be so. How about you? Do you think Canadian cops just decided it would be fun to copycat the Minnesota cops, and started murdering random citizens?
Canada is, in many ways, more racist than Amerika.
Is that a yes? You do believe the Toronto cops are so racist they just decided to throw that woman off her balcony for not being white? I can't tell.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Millennie Al » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:14 am

Herainestold wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:30 am
Canada flies under the radar because everyone looks at the US. In reality it is colonialist, patriarchal and white supremacist.

Study Proves Canada Is Actually More Racist Than The United States



https://www.mtlblog.com/news/canada/stu ... ted-states
Firstly, that link is to an article which has two characteristics that should lead you to ignore it:
  1. When visited with Javascript disabled, it shows a blank page
  2. It uses bold letters to highlight points
The first is indicative that it is obsessed with hit rate and viewer metrics, which means it's highly likely to be click-bait rather than serious content. If you can find the same information elsewhere, cite that, otherwise there's an excellent chance it's not true or otherwise deceptive. Note that both of these cases mean that you ignore the article itself.

The second shows that it is written for idiots who cannot simply read a passage and understand it. If that is their audience, what chance is there of it containing a fair report of anything, rather than a biased or simplistic one?


Secondly, I have looked at the news article it foolishly links to "Canada has a discrimination problem when it comes to hiring — here’s why" (https://globalnews.ca/news/5424465/disc ... es-canada/). This aricle has a dramatic headline which is completely undermined by the content. In particular, it says about the lead author, Quillian:
However, he emphasizes that the difference — not only between Canada and the U.S. but also between the U.K., Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway and Germany — is very small.

“Canada looks pretty similar to the U.S., in terms of its level of hiring discrimination against racial and ethnic minorities,” he said.

“Maybe a little bit higher, but the difference higher is within the margin of error that exists… so that could be a result of chance differences. We don’t have a huge base of studies for Canada.”

Then, I moved on to the study itself. There are some aspects of the study that I dislike. It says:
We aimed to include in our meta-analysis all existing studies, published or unpublished, that ...
Presumably a detailed study of the references would reveal how many unpublished studies were used, but my quick scan through the paper itself couldn't find it. It seems rather dubious to include unpublished studies.

I have not looked at the figures, but I did spot one anomaly. It states that 97 studies were included in the analysis (this figure is also in the title of the paper), and then Table 2 lists:

Code: Select all

Testers Male Only             38
Testers Female Only            8
Testers Both Male and Female  53
Obviously they add up to 99, not 97.

Then there is the nature of the studies. Most of them (80) consist of sending in job applications which differ only in ethnicity (however that may be conveyed) and seeing how many of the fictional job applicants were contacted for follow up. While this may well be one form of discrimination, it seems rather a misrepresentation to then use that study to claim that it indicates the level of discrimination in general. I'm sure people would find a significant difference between being shot and not getting a call in relation to a job application.

And finally, the most impressive thing about this study is the size of the confidence intervals. Remember that it is cited as showing that Canada is 11% more discriminatory that the USA? Well, all of the countries are compared against the USA and given a discrimination ratio relative to the USA. While Canada does score 1.11, only one country's 95% confidence interval excludes 1.0 - that of France - not Canada - see figure 2.

So I conclude that it is a weak study puffed up far beyond its significance by reporters.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Herainestold » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:27 am

Martin Y wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 7:55 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:38 am
Martin Y wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:58 pm
I'm going to be horrified beyond belief if this turns out to be a case of Toronto police deciding to throw a woman off her 24th floor balcony rather than the woman choosing to do it herself. But on the other hand I absolutely do not expect it to turn out to be so. How about you? Do you think Canadian cops just decided it would be fun to copycat the Minnesota cops, and started murdering random citizens?
Canada is, in many ways, more racist than Amerika.
Is that a yes? You do believe the Toronto cops are so racist they just decided to throw that woman off her balcony for not being white? I can't tell.
They thought they could get away with it. They probably will.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:07 am

Justin Amash is trying to introduce an act to end qualified immunity. While qualified immunity is not the whole problem, it is a major part of it, as it shields criminal officers from consequences. If this can be combined with efforts to abolish civil asset forfeiture, clamp down on the use of fines to fund departments* and efforts to break up police unions**, it might actually achieve something.

Image

*Combined, these give police a financial incentive to interfere with citizens and drag them needlessly into the justice system just to steal their stuff. I've seen a lot of discussion in the last few days about the police attitude to fines causing many of the problems in Ferguson.

**I'm normally a supporter of collective bargaining, and it is a powerful tool that strengthens the hand of workers. Unfortunately American police unions use that power to shield officers from disciplinary action, promote a dangerous "thin blue line" mentality, and are politicised in disturbing ways. For example, the head of Chauvin's police union spoke at a Trump rally, and the union has sold "Cops for Trump" t-shirts.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:54 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 8:07 am
Justin Amash is trying to introduce an act to end qualified immunity. While qualified immunity is not the whole problem, it is a major part of it, as it shields criminal officers from consequences. If this can be combined with efforts to abolish civil asset forfeiture, clamp down on the use of fines to fund departments* and efforts to break up police unions**, it might actually achieve something.

Image

*Combined, these give police a financial incentive to interfere with citizens and drag them needlessly into the justice system just to steal their stuff. I've seen a lot of discussion in the last few days about the police attitude to fines causing many of the problems in Ferguson.

**I'm normally a supporter of collective bargaining, and it is a powerful tool that strengthens the hand of workers. Unfortunately American police unions use that power to shield officers from disciplinary action, promote a dangerous "thin blue line" mentality, and are politicised in disturbing ways. For example, the head of Chauvin's police union spoke at a Trump rally, and the union has sold "Cops for Trump" t-shirts.
Yes, the US policing structure is rotten. As I have said elsewhere. And the Ferguson report was shocking - especially when you looked at its "disparity index" for vehicular stops compared to other Missouri police forces, and found that it was better than the average.
EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:43 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:20 pm
Ok I've seen more photos, and clearly not everyone was masked or socially distancing.

However, I'm still not happy about calling protests organised by and attended by black people "idiotic", nor the way EACL implies that they don't actually care about others and are just trying to be righteous.
It was a bunch of student protestors - I did not see a single person involved* who did not fall somewhere in the last couple of years of school through to end of undergrad age range, nor a single person with any sign that they were not fully fit, a striking contrast with the American protestors. This was a group of people in the lowest risk category, privileged in the knowledge that their chances of dying from the virus are relatively low compared to the people they will spread it to.
Of course the foreign protests have value. They demonstrate that the black community in the USA is not standing alone while their government uses the tactics of fascism to oppress them.
They are other ways of expressing solidarity - all people in the US will get from this is a few pictures online or (relatively unlikely) on the news - that kind of effect can be got without an unnecesary mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic. They could have said "we are in the worst hit country, with a government that has f.cked up the response at the cost of BME people; we are with you, and here is how we are showing it without further endangering those communities most endangered by our government's terrible handling of the pandemic"

The calculations are very different in the states, where this is an immediate and local issue, be it the cold blooded murder of a man by police, or the attacks on peaceful rallies by militarised police. And in the states, I think the protests probably did lead to the arrest of Chauvin. They are still a danger, but given the fact that much of the US has not been hit as hard as London and the much greater need for immediate protest, the risk/necessity calculations come out very differently.
There are of course issues with police brutality in the UK, which disproportionately affect black people. Black people are also disproportionately incarcerated, where overcrowded conditions create a huge risk. I know that BLM in the UK would like to increase awareness of those problems - too many people have this smug idea that judicial racism is an exclusively foreign problem.
Police brutality absolutely is a problem here, and nobody has denied it. However, to put things in context, British police killed three people last year, twenty two in the last decade. Let's put that in or compared to the pandemic this protest ignored, which takes less than half an hour to kill that people, or, putting it another way, takes just a few hours to kill as many people as the police have killed in the last couple of decades, regardless of justification. This is not an attempt at whataboutery, not an "how can you care about <small number> when <big number> exists. The need for the comparison exists because they did one of the worst things they could do to to worsen the big number.

By contrast, not only are the American protesters responding to an immediate event - and achieving something with their protest - American police kill people at something like ninety times the rate of British police. I saw someone run through the numbers and show black men are, despite the pandemic's disproportionate impact on ethnic minorities in the states as well as here, still at greater risk of being killed by the police than the virus.
So there are clearly sensible, legitimate reasons to protest, along with sensible, legitimate reasons not to. I'm not comfortable with people dismissing the protestors as idiots. It would have been safer for them to have found an alternative protesting strategy, sure. But it's an important and emotive issue and I can't blame people for reacting emotionally.
Frankly, I don't care what you are comfortable with. They put out an invite for people to travel to all meet up in one place. As far as I can tell, it is the first such event since the start of the lockdown. Going by videos people there and supportive of the event posted, social distancing was completely ignored, and some people in masks had pulled them down to chant.

The involvement of planned, organiser lead chanting shows they weren't interested in adjusting their protest to reduce the risks to those present, or their families, or healthcare workers. Compare and contrast with this protest into the far more immediate issue of inadequate PPE for healthcare workers, something that has killed BME people far more than police brutality has lately.

Image

It's not that their cause is not important, it is, and outside of a pandemic, I'd be supporting them, it's that they didn't make the slightest adjustment to how they protested, didn't give the slightest consideration for those without the privilege of youth and good health who they have endangered. They put out a call for people to travel and meet up in one place and do the highest risk thing they could do short of an orgy or a mass licking session. Had they asked for actual social distancing**, only local people to attend, a silent protest - silent protests can be very powerful - they would at least have tried. They chose not to even try.

*Not saying there weren't any people outside of this age range, but if there were, they were vastly, vastly outnumbered.

**There was a footnote on their communication calling for people to attend saying "please attempt social distancing". That was it. Not only did we see hundreds just ignore it entirely, including, as far as I can tell, the people leading the chants, those that were spaced out could still have reached out and touched people in several directions without moving their feet.
Well said
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin Y » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:37 am

Herainestold wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:27 am
They thought they could get away with it. They probably will.
As suggested motives go, that's not the most compelling.

According to CBC, the family's lawyer says they are now waiting on evidence from the investigation and that statements made prior to May 28th (i.e. the victim's mother's initial claim the police pushed her off the balcony) are not part of the family's official statement. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ ... -1.5592134

The victim's death now has a Wikipedia page which, obviously pending confirmation, gives more of a sequence of events. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_ ... ski-Paquet

The claim is that only Regis and the police entered the apartment, she to use the bathroom, then the family heard her call for help, next a police officer emerged and went to the neighbour's door saying Regis was either in that apartment or the one below. It's horrible, but it sounds like she fell trying to get away and the police failed to stop her.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by EACLucifer » Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:21 am

Twitter thread of actual meaningful legislation that has been passed at local level that ought to be more widespread

Highlights inc.

Banning police from recruiting officers who have previously been dismissed/resigned during proceedings for serious misconduct or excessive force

Requiring all stop and searches to be reported to central database inc. officer ID and details of person stopped. Summary published annually

Requiring police to exhaust all alternatives before using deadly force

Banning police from receiving surplus military equipment

Banning chokeholds

Requiring officers who shoot people to undergo immediate drug and alcohol tests

Restricting union contracts from interfering with accountability measures

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Herainestold » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:09 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:43 am
By contrast, not only are the American protesters responding to an immediate event - and achieving something with their protest - American police kill people at something like ninety times the rate of British police. I saw someone run through the numbers and show black men are, despite the pandemic's disproportionate impact on ethnic minorities in the states as well as here, still at greater risk of being killed by the police than the virus.
That is a horrifying statistic. It translates into thousands of deaths. Truly a racist-fascist state.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Stephanie » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:10 pm

"I got a flu virus named after me 'cause I kissed a bat on a dare."

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by bolo » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:35 pm

Millennie Al wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:14 am
2. It uses bold letters to highlight points
<snip>
The second shows that it is written for idiots who cannot simply read a passage and understand it. If that is their audience, what chance is there of it containing a fair report of anything, rather than a biased or simplistic one?
Now I am wondering how the rest of us should take the bold letters in your sig?

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by FlammableFlower » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:22 pm

Washington Post wrote:During a conference call Monday, Trump berated the state leaders, calling them “weak,” and urged them to “dominate” protesters, according to officials familiar with the president’s remarks. The conference call followed another turbulent night across the nation, as protests that began peacefully exploded into mayhem.
This will go well...

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by shpalman » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:47 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:22 pm
Washington Post wrote:During a conference call Monday, Trump berated the state leaders, calling them “weak,” and urged them to “dominate” protesters, according to officials familiar with the president’s remarks. The conference call followed another turbulent night across the nation, as protests that began peacefully exploded into mayhem.
This will go well...
Did he make that call from his bunker where he was cowering like a pathetic f.cking little coward?
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:52 pm

They're already shooting at people standing peacefully on their own property, tear gassing and macing crowds, etc. The only conceivable way to escalate that violence is through increased use of live rounds.

There's only a few months till the election, so if some fascists did want to complete their takeover of the US this would be the perfect time to start militarizing major cities, implementing curfews, restricting free assembly and so on.

(I know some people were claiming the same about coronavirus, but the obvious difference is that only the USA is starting to send soldiers into the streets. I reckon it's unlikely anyway, though - much cheaper to just control the media, gerrymander, supply dodgy voting machines, suppress turnout and lose ballots)
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by bolo » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:35 pm

There will be a 7pm curfew in DC starting tonight.

(Note that this was imposed by the mayor, who is black and a Democrat, not by the federal authorities.)

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by FlammableFlower » Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:17 pm

Hope you're ok bolo

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by shpalman » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:00 pm

having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Grumble » Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:32 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:00 pm
Cops accidentally arrest FBI agent
In the thread below people say he’s not an FBI agent, and link to what seems to be his Instagram account in support.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by shpalman » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:23 pm

Grumble wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:32 pm
shpalman wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:00 pm
Cops accidentally arrest FBI agent
In the thread below people say he’s not an FBI agent, and link to what seems to be his Instagram account in support.
And/or it might be a year old. Sorry.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by shpalman » Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:44 pm

shpalman wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:23 pm
Grumble wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:32 pm
shpalman wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:00 pm
Cops accidentally arrest FBI agent
In the thread below people say he’s not an FBI agent, and link to what seems to be his Instagram account in support.
And/or it might be a year old. Sorry.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fbi-a ... -protests/
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