US police & murders of black men

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Woodchopper
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:25 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:18 pm
This piece offers a really good overview of police budgets. It notes that the majority of it goes to salaries (US police are paid more than other countries including the UK and France), equipment (including costly body cameras that have a mysterious tendency to not be turned on when people are being injured or killed) and lawsuits and settlement fees.
Around $230 million is spent per year on NYPD misconduct lawsuits alone, while in 2018 Chicago’s police department spent $113 million on settlements and legal fees to families of those killed or harmed by police.
The piece also references Alex Vitale's book The End Of Policing (currently available for free as an ebook) which argues that police are having to 'over-police' in order to justify their budgets. This can be clearly seen in the BBC3 documentary NYPD: The Biggest Gang in New York? where in some parts of the city (oddly enough, those with majority-black residents) even letting cigarette ash fall to the ground is treated as a criminal offence.
I don’t disagree with any of that. But it’s still the case that fundamental reform of US policing will require an increase in personnel costs while all the officers are being trained or retrained. And that’ll probably take a decade, if not longer.

There may well be savings if some of the roles can be transferred to other services and over policing is reduced. But the priority has to be reform of the police to end the brutality.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Martin_B » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:59 am

Do you know if there's much appetite in America for a fundamental reform of policing to change it from every local municipality having their own force, to state or even national level policing (more like most of the world)?

Here in Oz we have state police forces and federal police forces, which appear to cooperate in the main (well, here in WA they do). That level of 6000 police forces having less than 10 officers just seems mad.

It is that all funding for the police is local taxes, and so has to be spent locally? Surely cities of 100,000 can't support dedicated SWAT teams from local taxes.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by bolo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:55 am

I imagine there is very little appetite for that.

Here is an example of a local police budget (for the county where I happen to live):
https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/budget/si ... me1/90.pdf
Total annual expenses are about $200 million, of which all but about 15% comes from local taxes. It's a much larger force than the tiny ones you mention, but I imagine the proportions are similar.

The county government here is relatively enlightened. I would not expect the county police to get better if taken over by the state police (which exists, but has different responsibilities). I would expect it to get much worse if taken over by the current federal administration.

I suspect there may also be legal reasons why a state takeover, and even more so a federal takeover, would be difficult, based on who has the authority to enforce what sorts of laws. But I am not a lawyer.

There is plenty of appetite for state and federal laws about what local police forces must do, or stop doing, but that is a different question.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by JQH » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:13 pm

Had to happen: Floyd's death was all planned and anyway he's not dead. And Obama knew in advance!!!!

From your favourite health quack turned hate-monger, Mike Adams:

htwatps://www.naturalnews.com/2020-06-08-false-fl ... floyd.html
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Vertigowooyay » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:26 pm

JQH wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:13 pm
Had to happen: Floyd's death was all planned and anyway he's not dead. And Obama knew in advance!!!!

From your favourite health quack turned hate-monger, Mike Adams:

htwatps://www.naturalnews.com/2020-06-08-false-fl ... floyd.html
He is an absolute, solid gold, supercharged turbocunt.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by JQH » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:38 pm

I wonder how many people believe his shite. I wonder if he believes it himself.

He's also predicting an armed uprising in Seattle on July 4th and that trucking companies will refuse to ship food and fuel into towns and cities that "defund" the police.

When it fails to happen he'll ignore his prediction as he did when Trump failed to order the arrest of all "Deep State traitors" last year.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Vertigowooyay » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:20 pm

JQH wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:38 pm
I wonder how many people believe his shite. I wonder if he believes it himself.
Of course he doesn’t. He started out as a quack hawking quack remedies who at some point worked out that the overlap between anti-pharma conspiracy theorists and right wing lunatic conspiracy theorists was large enough to fleece two sets of gullible idiots. He no more believes what he writes any more than a snake oil peddler believed their snake oil worked. He’s just a dangerous huckster.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by tom p » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:38 pm

Vertigowooyay wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:20 pm
JQH wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:38 pm
I wonder how many people believe his shite. I wonder if he believes it himself.
Of course he doesn’t. He started out as a quack hawking quack remedies who at some point worked out that the overlap between anti-pharma conspiracy theorists and right wing lunatic conspiracy theorists was large enough to fleece two sets of gullible idiots. He no more believes what he writes any more than a snake oil peddler believed their snake oil worked. He’s just a dangerous huckster. Who should be killed slowly and painfully as a lesson to other such c.nts
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:07 pm

bolo wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:55 am
I imagine there is very little appetite for that.

Here is an example of a local police budget (for the county where I happen to live):
https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/budget/si ... me1/90.pdf
Total annual expenses are about $200 million, of which all but about 15% comes from local taxes. It's a much larger force than the tiny ones you mention, but I imagine the proportions are similar.
Interesting, the Fairfax County police seems roughly equivalent to the Surrey Police Force in the UK - covers a population of about a million, and a surburban area next to a major city.

It’s fy2018/9 budget was £214 million or $267 million.
https://www.surrey-pcc.gov.uk/transpare ... -finances/

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by bolo » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:26 pm

There is a quite a lot of variability between police budgets in different US locations. Some data here:

https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cr ... penditures

The factor that most clearly drives per-capita police budgets is apparently prevailing local wages, as most police spending is on personnel.

The average share spent by local governments, 86%, matches very closely with the Fairfax County VA example.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:01 pm

Black man in Wisconsin shot in the back seven times in front of his kids:
Protests have erupted in the US state of Wisconsin after police shot a black man many times while responding to what they said was a domestic incident.

The man, identified as Jacob Blake, is in a serious condition in hospital.

Video posted online appears to show Mr Blake being shot in the back as he tries to get into a car in the city of Kenosha.
Curfews and tear gas in response to the protests.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53886070
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:20 am

A longrunning thread on ISF (Was JREF)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/fo ... 51&page=74

Lots of examples, and certainly enough to say that there is a problem.

Several posters point out that when the victim is white (US cops also use unjustified force against white people, just not as disproportionately as against black people) it's often the BLM campaigners who are in the forefront whilst the "All lives matter" supporters are strangely silent.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:53 am

Luckily not a death,

https://news.sky.com/story/ohio-police- ... s-12270084

At the moment there's nothing preventing the cop from getting another police job. After all,
With an internal investigation still ongoing, Mr Caprez said: "Up until the time snow was used, it was textbook… we did everything right up to that point."
In this case, "textbook" means "perfectly legal" and the police chief seems to think ghis is praiseworthy.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:22 pm

Minneapolis PD couldn't quite make it to the end of the trial without shooting another black man, this time apparently for the crime of re-entering his own vehicle during a traffic stop.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56714346
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:28 pm

If you enjoy videos of medics getting tortured by cops, I recommend the footage from this case:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/10/us/c ... ginia.html
Caron Nazario, a lieutenant in the U.S. Army Medical Corps, was driving to Petersburg, Va., from a drill weekend the night of Dec. 5 when he saw police lights flashing behind him.

Too nervous to stop on a darkened road, Lieutenant Nazario, who is Black and Latino, drove about a mile to a gas station, pulled over and placed his cellphone on his dashboard, according to a lawsuit and video footage of the encounter.

Immediately, two Windsor police officers can be heard yelling orders at him.

“Get out of the car,” one yells as Lieutenant Nazario, remaining seated, repeatedly asks why he had been stopped and why the officers had drawn their guns. He positions his empty hands outside the window.

“I’m honestly afraid to get out of the car,” Lieutenant Nazario says.

“Yeah,” says one of the officers, Joe Gutierrez, according to footage from his body camera. “You should be.”

Seconds later, Officer Gutierrez doused the lieutenant with pepper spray. Lieutenant Nazario’s hands remained up as he coughed and pleaded with the officers to undo his seatbelt and make sure his dog, Smoke, was not choking in the back. Liquid from the spray dripped down his hands and face.

Lieutenant Nazario, 27, a graduate of Virginia State University, filed a lawsuit this month in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. It accuses the officers of illegally searching his car, using excessive force and violating his rights under the First Amendment. The lawsuit seeks $1 million in compensatory damages.

Lieutenant Nazario also accused the officers of threatening to destroy his military career by charging him with multiple crimes if he complained about their conduct, according to the complaint, which was reported this week by The Virginian-Pilot in Norfolk.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by bolo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:58 pm

“I’m honestly afraid to get out of the car,” Lieutenant Nazario says.

“Yeah,” says one of the officers, Joe Gutierrez, according to footage from his body camera. “You should be.”

Seconds later, Officer Gutierrez doused the lieutenant with pepper spray.
Officer Gutierrez has been fired.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:01 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:22 pm
Minneapolis PD couldn't quite make it to the end of the trial without shooting another black man, this time apparently for the crime of re-entering his own vehicle during a traffic stop.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56714346
Apparently the officer meant to fire her taser but fired her gun by accident. <Sure_Jan.gif>

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:10 pm

bolo wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:58 pm
“I’m honestly afraid to get out of the car,” Lieutenant Nazario says.

“Yeah,” says one of the officers, Joe Gutierrez, according to footage from his body camera. “You should be.”

Seconds later, Officer Gutierrez doused the lieutenant with pepper spray.
Officer Gutierrez has been fired.
Well that's a start, as long as he doesn't just get re-hired by a different force up the road. Obviously he should be charged with assault.

Some kind of federal "cop licence" that could be revoked from people like that would be a good idea.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:11 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:01 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:22 pm
Minneapolis PD couldn't quite make it to the end of the trial without shooting another black man, this time apparently for the crime of re-entering his own vehicle during a traffic stop.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56714346
Apparently the officer meant to fire her taser but fired her gun by accident. <Sure_Jan.gif>


Untitled.png
FFS :(
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by bolo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:35 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:10 pm
Some kind of federal "cop licence" that could be revoked from people like that would be a good idea.
There are state licenses for police officers. Most states have a process for revoking those licenses, and most participate in a national database of revoked licenses. But states vary widely in how often they actually revoke licenses. From 2015 to 2019, Georgia revoked 3,239 while Maryland only revoked one. (On the other hand, Maryland just became the first state to repeal the "Police Bill of Rights".)

The database is run by the International Association of Directors of Law Enforcement Standards and Training, not by the federal government, although it got some federal startup money. IANAL but it wouldn't surprise me if there are constitutional reasons why instituting a federal police license would be impossible (or at least difficult).

More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_of ... ted_States.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Cardinal Fang » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:56 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:01 pm
Apparently the officer meant to fire her taser but fired her gun by accident.
That in itself is worrying. I would have thought that it should be difficult to draw a gun save by conscious and deliberate action. "Ooops I picked up the wrong thing" is not something that should happen

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by monkey » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:00 pm

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:56 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:01 pm
Apparently the officer meant to fire her taser but fired her gun by accident.
That in itself is worrying. I would have thought that it should be difficult to draw a gun save by conscious and deliberate action. "Ooops I picked up the wrong thing" is not something that should happen

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by sTeamTraen » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 pm

Cardinal Fang wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:56 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:01 pm
Apparently the officer meant to fire her taser but fired her gun by accident.
That in itself is worrying. I would have thought that it should be difficult to draw a gun save by conscious and deliberate action. "Ooops I picked up the wrong thing" is not something that should happen
It would be worrying in an ergonomic sense if I thought it was even remotely true, which I don't.

The only thing I find worrying is not that she might have thought it was the Taser (if she did then she should not have passed even the most elementary fitness checks... they do those, right?), but that the fact that she had the Taser as well as the gun provided her with this super-lame excuse.

Again and again we see people who are utterly unfit to be left in charge of a potato peeler being issued with deadly weapons (although of course this being Murica, there are tens of millions of civilians in the same situation). One of the more endearing features (heaven knows they need them) of the UK police is the regular surveys that show that lots of them, perhaps even a majority, don't want to be armed, not least because I suspect many of them would sh.t themselves if they had to draw their gun.

If this goes to trial and that turns out to be a successful defence then I guess they will have to re-design Tasers so they make a huge f.cking noise ("I am a Taser! Not a gun! Taser!!") when you draw it, treating the user as a total f.cking idiot --- kind of like those ludicrous "seat belts that put themselves on" that were in US cars for a short time in the 1990s.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by monkey » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:28 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 pm
Cardinal Fang wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:56 pm
sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:01 pm
Apparently the officer meant to fire her taser but fired her gun by accident.
That in itself is worrying. I would have thought that it should be difficult to draw a gun save by conscious and deliberate action. "Ooops I picked up the wrong thing" is not something that should happen
It would be worrying in an ergonomic sense if I thought it was even remotely true, which I don't.

The only thing I find worrying is not that she might have thought it was the Taser (if she did then she should not have passed even the most elementary fitness checks... they do those, right?), but that the fact that she had the Taser as well as the gun provided her with this super-lame excuse.

Again and again we see people who are utterly unfit to be left in charge of a potato peeler being issued with deadly weapons (although of course this being Murica, there are tens of millions of civilians in the same situation). One of the more endearing features (heaven knows they need them) of the UK police is the regular surveys that show that lots of them, perhaps even a majority, don't want to be armed, not least because I suspect many of them would sh.t themselves if they had to draw their gun.

If this goes to trial and that turns out to be a successful defence then I guess they will have to re-design Tasers so they make a huge f.cking noise ("I am a Taser! Not a gun! Taser!!") when you draw it, treating the user as a total f.cking idiot --- kind of like those ludicrous "seat belts that put themselves on" that were in US cars for a short time in the 1990s.
Like I said, this has happened before. And nothing has changed.

While I was trying to find out how many times it's happened before (I haven't yet), I found this story. The cop got off with no charges, it seems that even doing something as simple as not keeping the taser next to the gun would help and is what he was supposed to be doing.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Lew Dolby » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:07 pm

sTeamTraen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:08 pm
One of the more endearing features (heaven knows they need them) of the UK police is the regular surveys that show that lots of them, perhaps even a majority, don't want to be armed, not least because I suspect many of them would sh.t themselves if they had to draw their gun.
maybe they've come across the "fact" (I don't know if it's true or not) that a good percentage of US police who get shot on duty are shot with their own gun.
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