US police & murders of black men

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:12 pm

SECOND DEGREE MURDER YOU CAN NO LONGER KNEEL ON UNCONSCIOUS PEOPLE'S NECKS UNTIL THEIR DEATH
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Grumble » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:34 pm

Goodness me, I didn’t know the police weren’t allowed to kill black men sometimes.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by shpalman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:39 pm

So they found who did it then?
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Boustrophedon » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:39 pm

He will of course appeal and appeal and appeal til he gets off, he only needs to win once.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Fishnut » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:45 am

Columbus Police Fatally Shoot Black Teen Who Called Them for Help, Aunt Says

The article has spelt the victim's name incorrectly. She's Makhia Bryant, aged 15, and she called the police for help when several women came to the foster home where she had been living and started an altercation with her. Apparently she had a knife for self-defence though it had been dropped by the time the police arrived. They shot her four times without warning.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:24 pm

How it started:
Image

How it's going:
Image
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by monkey » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:12 am

Obviously the problem is the protestors and cities who might want to fix things. If we can't hear people complaining, there's nothing to complain about, right.

https://nyti.ms/3ecYd6I

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Fishnut » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:50 am

Verso Books have made the ebook of The End of Policing by Alex Vitale free for an undisclosed length of time. I haven't finished reading it yet but what I have read has been truly eye-opening.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Woodchopper » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:25 pm

From 2014 to 2019, Campbell tracked more than 1,600 BLM protests across the country, largely in bigger cities, with nearly 350,000 protesters. His main finding is a 15 to 20 percent reduction in lethal use of force by police officers — roughly 300 fewer police homicides — in census places that saw BLM protests.

[...]

The major finding in the paper is that places with BLM protests experienced a statistically significant decline in police homicides. Further, the biggest declines are when protests are relatively large and/or frequent.

Campbell also observes that, over time, the gap in police homicide rates widens between places with and without protests. In year zero, he finds a 13 percent drop in police homicides; by year four, that decline expands by 14 percentage points. That means it’s likely that the effect of BLM protests is strong enough to lower the number of police homicides for several years.

Campbell believes there are three potential mechanisms that could have led to this decline, none of which are mutually exclusive.

First, he observed an increase in the use of body cameras and different types of community policing. It’s possible that, in response to BLM protests, police departments implemented reforms that reduced lethal use of force. Campbell’s research finds a significant increase in the likelihood of an agency obtaining body-worn cameras (55.3 percent), patrol officers within a designated geographic area (20.6 percent), and SARA officers, a type of community policing (57.5 percent).

The existing literature on body cameras is mixed, though, undercutting the idea that widespread body camera use alone is the driving force behind declining instances of police brutality.

A Brookings Institution expert explained that while randomized trials “in American and European police departments found that body worn camera’s reduced the number of complaints filed by local residents against the police ... they showed mixed effects on use of force by and against police officers.” In a major 2017 study conducted in Washington, DC, the researchers found that “the behavior of officers who wore cameras all the time was indistinguishable from the behavior of those who never wore cameras.”

One bright spot in the research on body cameras is a recent job market paper by University of Chicago economics researcher Taeho Kim; the nationwide study found that the use of these cameras reduced police-involved homicides by 43 percent.

[...]

Wasow explained that it may not be the specific reforms per se but that the increase of administrative or training changes indicates more people are taking accountability seriously within the justice system. Accountability culture is hard to measure, so researchers can observe it in an uptick in measures like body-worn cameras or community policing. If this is true, police reform may have less to do with specific policies than just an increased commitment to holding officers to a higher standard.

[...]

The second mechanism is that civilians are becoming more wary of the police in the aftermath of these protests and the publicizing of instances of police homicides. That could mean people call 911 less or engage with police officers less of their own volition, which has the effect of reducing civilian/police interactions and thereby fatal interactions as well.

Finally, the third mechanism is something called the Ferguson effect: the supposition that protests against police brutality reduce officer morale and effort due to the “intensified scrutiny from the community and media.” In other words, officers stop doing their jobs as aggressively. This can lead to reduced arrests, especially for less serious crimes like disorderly conduct or marijuana possession.

Deepak Premkumar, a research fellow at the Public Policy Institute of California, found in recently released research that police do reduce their efforts following officer-involved fatalities: Theft arrests fall by 7 percent, and for “quality of life crimes” like disorderly conduct or marijuana possession, arrests decline by up to 23 percent (weed possession alone declines by up to 33 percent)
However...
Campbell’s research also indicates that these protests correlate with a 10 percent increase in murders in the areas that saw BLM protests. That means from 2014 to 2019, there were somewhere between 1,000 and 6,000 more homicides than would have been expected if places with protests were on the same trend as places that did not have protests. Campbell’s research does not include the effects of last summer’s historic wave of protests because researchers do not yet have all the relevant data.

[...]

It’s worth noting that Campbell didn’t subject the homicide findings to the same battery of statistical tests as he did the police killings since they were not the main focus of his research. (He intends to do more research on how these protests affected crime rates.) But his research on homicides aligns with other evidence. Omar Wasow, a professor at Princeton University who has done seminal research on the effect of protests, told Vox that the results are “entirely plausible” and “not surprising,” considering existing protest research.

The reasons for this rise in murders are not fully known, but one possible explanation is that police morale drops following scrutiny, leading officers to reduce their efforts and thereby emboldening criminals. Another is that members of the public voluntarily withdraw from engagements with the police after a police homicide delegitimizes the justice system in their eyes. (More on this below.)

[...]

Campbell’s study finds that BLM protests correlate with a 10 percent increase in murder. That is, there were a few thousand more homicides in the places where there were BLM protests than would have been expected if those places followed the same trends as the ones that didn’t see protests.

We don’t know why BLM protests correlated with an increase in the murder rate, and there’s not a lot of research in this space to help guide us. Additionally, Campbell’s research question was focused on the effect of BLM protests on police homicides, so these other observed changes regarding other homicides were not subjected to the same robustness tests.

A number of factors could be driving the increase. Premkumar, who studied the Ferguson effect, also observed a “significant rise” (10 to 17 percent) in murders and robberies following highly publicized officer-involved fatalities.

But from talking with experts, there are a few ways we can understand what may be happening here.

First, it’s possible criminal activity rises in areas that have seen protests because people stop calling the police or working with them out of fear or anger — thereby emboldening criminal behavior. Moreover, some experts believe people will try to resolve their disputes extrajudicially if the system loses legitimacy following a police homicide.

If this were happening, we would expect to see a reduction in the reported rates of low-level crime — fewer low-level crimes would be reported relative to high-level crimes like murders. Murders are less likely to go unnoticed because, well, there’s a missing person and/or a body. So the murder rate is usually the best indicator of what’s actually going on with crime writ large.

Campbell observes a significant increase in the murder rate but a simultaneous 8.4 percent decrease in total property crimes reported. That is consistent with people voluntarily reducing interactions with the police, and other criminologists are in favor of this explanation. However, research by Michael Zoorob, a PhD student at Harvard University, finds that “across a large number of cities, incidents, and analytic strategies well-publicized brutality incidents do not reduce 911 calls to report common property or violent crimes,” casting doubt on the idea that police homicides reduce voluntary civilian engagement with police.

[...]

One other possible explanation for the increased murder rate is that law enforcement officials are the ones voluntarily reducing their interactions with the community and as a result emboldening criminal activity. One way to observe whether police are reducing their efforts is to see whether the share of property crimes cleared falls over this period. In other words, are police not trying as hard — either because they are demoralized or angry at public scrutiny of their behavior — to solve low-level crimes that are reported to them? Campbell observes a 5.5 percent decline in the share of property crimes cleared, which is consistent with police reducing their efforts immediately following the protests.

The good news is that even if Campbell’s finding about the increase in murders following BLM protests holds up to further scrutiny, the effect doesn’t appear to last for long. By year four, Campbell no longer observes a statistically significant increase in murders, indicating that whatever is going on with murders is hopefully not long term.
https://www.vox.com/22360290/black-live ... cts-murder
Much more at the link.

tl;dr
BLM protests are associated with about 300 fewer subsequent killings by police officers. However the protests are also associated with 1000-6000 more homicides in the general population. Reasons are unclear.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by discovolante » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:44 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:50 am
Verso Books have made the ebook of The End of Policing by Alex Vitale free for an undisclosed length of time. I haven't finished reading it yet but what I have read has been truly eye-opening.
It's a good read but I would appreciate a longer version that goes into more depth about other policing systems around the world.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by dyqik » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:08 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:25 pm

tl;dr
BLM protests are associated with about 300 fewer subsequent killings by police officers. However the protests are also associated with 1000-6000 more homicides in the general population. Reasons are unclear.
Given than the BLM protests have coincided with a Trump government, a rise in white supremacist terrorism, mass police union pisstaking, anti-Trump protests, and a rise in toxic white male violence, I think it's a courageous conclusion to tie homicide rate changes to the protests.

Left wing/liberal protests generally have been associated with homicides, as in Charlottesville. The general temperature of anger and thus violence increased throughout this period.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Millennie Al » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:18 am

Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:25 pm
tl;dr
BLM protests are associated with about 300 fewer subsequent killings by police officers.
Which is also consistent with protests being caused by the worst peaks of random variation in quality of policing which would naturally be followed by an improvement. We cannot conclude that it means that the protests are being listened to and acted upon.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:50 am

Super interesting article, thanks Chops.
dyqik wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:08 pm
Woodchopper wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:25 pm

tl;dr
BLM protests are associated with about 300 fewer subsequent killings by police officers. However the protests are also associated with 1000-6000 more homicides in the general population. Reasons are unclear.
Given than the BLM protests have coincided with a Trump government, a rise in white supremacist terrorism, mass police union pisstaking, anti-Trump protests, and a rise in toxic white male violence, I think it's a courageous conclusion to tie homicide rate changes to the protests.

Left wing/liberal protests generally have been associated with homicides, as in Charlottesville. The general temperature of anger and thus violence increased throughout this period.
Well, he's comparing census areas with and without protests. All areas had the same president etc so I'm not sure that works as an explanation.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:53 am

I'm gonna recommend looking at the actual article before vomming random guesses as to flaws with its methodology onto the forum

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3767097

because I'm hilariously old fashioned like that.
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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:54 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:53 am
I'm gonna recommend looking at the actual article before vomming random guesses as to flaws with its methodology onto the forum

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm ... id=3767097

because I'm hilariously old fashioned like that.
Thanks for posting that Bird.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:07 am

Looking into the homicide issue, and as mentioned in the Vox article, it appears that in Baltimore that there was an increase in homicide after the protests following the killing of Freddy Grey by police officers. Researchers have suggested that an explanation was that police 'pulled back', a conclusion based upon talking to police officers and numbers of arrests for other offences. However the situation is very complex and much is unclear, and other explanations are available.

The Death of Freddie Gray and Its Impact on Homicides in Baltimore and Maryland [Gated]
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... 4029.14499

Ferguson, Gray, and DavisAn Analysis of Recorded Crime Incidentsand Arrestsin Baltimore City, March 2010 through December 2015 [Open access report]
http://socweb.soc.jhu.edu/faculty/morga ... ly2016.pdf

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Re: US police & murders of black women

Post by Herainestold » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:24 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:45 am
Columbus Police Fatally Shoot Black Teen Who Called Them for Help, Aunt Says

The article has spelt the victim's name incorrectly. She's Makhia Bryant, aged 15, and she called the police for help when several women came to the foster home where she had been living and started an altercation with her. Apparently she had a knife for self-defence though it had been dropped by the time the police arrived. They shot her four times without warning.
Meanwhile, the cop who killed her has not been charged but is on paid leave. He is son of a police trainer and has military connections.
Ohio officer Nicholas Reardon has been identified regarding the death of teenager Ma’Khia Bryant.

Bryant was reportedly wielding a knife outside a home on April 20, 2021 amid an altercation with two other women.

He was named as the officer who reportedly fired shots at 16-year-old Ma’Khia Bryant outside an Ohio suburb.

Reardon had been a Columbus police officer since December 2019.

He has reportedly being placed on paid leave while the investigation regarding the case continues.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2744452/ma ... ates-live/

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Re: US police & murders of black women

Post by Bewildered » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:08 am

Herainestold wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:24 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:45 am
Columbus Police Fatally Shoot Black Teen Who Called Them for Help, Aunt Says

The article has spelt the victim's name incorrectly. She's Makhia Bryant, aged 15, and she called the police for help when several women came to the foster home where she had been living and started an altercation with her. Apparently she had a knife for self-defence though it had been dropped by the time the police arrived. They shot her four times without warning.
Meanwhile, the cop who killed her has not been charged but is on paid leave. He is son of a police trainer and has military connections.
Ohio officer Nicholas Reardon has been identified regarding the death of teenager Ma’Khia Bryant.

Bryant was reportedly wielding a knife outside a home on April 20, 2021 amid an altercation with two other women.

He was named as the officer who reportedly fired shots at 16-year-old Ma’Khia Bryant outside an Ohio suburb.

Reardon had been a Columbus police officer since December 2019.

He has reportedly being placed on paid leave while the investigation regarding the case continues.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2744452/ma ... ates-live/
For that one it did look to me like she was holding the knife and attacking a third party when viewing the footage.

I do wonder whether having police carry guns and the mn respond by using them in situations like that leads to more deaths rather fewer though. In Glasgow when I grew up people chibbing each other with knives was pretty common, but fatalities much less so. I am not sure armed police would have helped.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Bewildered » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:45 am

I doubt the chauvin case alone will change much in the US. I think people do not respond so cautiously to dangers that are low probability but large consequence, and also not kneeling on someone’s neck until they die while out in the open with witnesses who are filming and calling for you to stop is a very low bar.

I think what can help more is if there is much less tolerance for the more common low level harassment that does *not* end in shooting or death but does create the prevailing circumstances that means it occasionally will. Firing police officers who escalate situations, anatagonise people or draw their gun when they don’t need to and finding a way to keep weaken or transform the police union so they are not protected. If Chauvin had been fired much earlier for other offences, George Floyd would still be alive.

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Re: US police & murders of black women

Post by Woodchopper » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:23 am

Bewildered wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:08 am
Herainestold wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:24 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:45 am
Columbus Police Fatally Shoot Black Teen Who Called Them for Help, Aunt Says

The article has spelt the victim's name incorrectly. She's Makhia Bryant, aged 15, and she called the police for help when several women came to the foster home where she had been living and started an altercation with her. Apparently she had a knife for self-defence though it had been dropped by the time the police arrived. They shot her four times without warning.
Meanwhile, the cop who killed her has not been charged but is on paid leave. He is son of a police trainer and has military connections.
Ohio officer Nicholas Reardon has been identified regarding the death of teenager Ma’Khia Bryant.

Bryant was reportedly wielding a knife outside a home on April 20, 2021 amid an altercation with two other women.

He was named as the officer who reportedly fired shots at 16-year-old Ma’Khia Bryant outside an Ohio suburb.

Reardon had been a Columbus police officer since December 2019.

He has reportedly being placed on paid leave while the investigation regarding the case continues.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/2744452/ma ... ates-live/
For that one it did look to me like she was holding the knife and attacking a third party when viewing the footage.

I do wonder whether having police carry guns and the mn respond by using them in situations like that leads to more deaths rather fewer though. In Glasgow when I grew up people chibbing each other with knives was pretty common, but fatalities much less so. I am not sure armed police would have helped.
Yes, I agree. From the bodycam footage it looked like Ma’Khia Bryant was holding a knife and involved in a fight with someone else. But a similar incident in Europe would likely have ended without anyone being killed. It didn't seem necessary for the police officer to shoot her four times.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:29 pm

Sheriff's deputies shoot unarmed Virginia man who was on the phone with 911
"After viewing the Spotsylvania County Sheriff's deputy's bodycam video and listening to the 911 call, it is evident that the tragic shooting of Isaiah Brown was completely avoidable," David Haynes, an attorney for Brown's family, said in a statement. He said Brown was "on the phone with 911 at the time of the shooting and the officer mistook a cordless house phone for a gun."
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by jimbob » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:33 pm

Meanwhile:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/chauvins-conv ... d=77254006
The videos, from Sept. 4, 2017, allegedly showed Chauvin striking a Black teenager in the head so hard that the boy needed stitches, then allegedly holding the boy down with his knee for nearly 17 minutes, and allegedly ignoring complaints from the boy that he couldn't breathe.
Never charged with this and prosecutors were forbidden from bringing that as evidence against him in the George Floyd case.


Something entirely wrong with the system that let him remain as a cop
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: US police & murders of black women

Post by Herainestold » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:40 pm

Woodchopper wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:23 am
Bewildered wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:08 am
Herainestold wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:24 pm


Meanwhile, the cop who killed her has not been charged but is on paid leave. He is son of a police trainer and has military connections.



https://www.the-sun.com/news/2744452/ma ... ates-live/
For that one it did look to me like she was holding the knife and attacking a third party when viewing the footage.

I do wonder whether having police carry guns and the mn respond by using them in situations like that leads to more deaths rather fewer though. In Glasgow when I grew up people chibbing each other with knives was pretty common, but fatalities much less so. I am not sure armed police would have helped.
Yes, I agree. From the bodycam footage it looked like Ma’Khia Bryant was holding a knife and involved in a fight with someone else. But a similar incident in Europe would likely have ended without anyone being killed. It didn't seem necessary for the police officer to shoot her four times.
Maybe the American police should be disarmed as well as defunded.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by Matatouille » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:06 am

Bewildered wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:45 am
Firing police officers who escalate situations, anatagonise people or draw their gun when they don’t need to and finding a way to keep weaken or transform the police union so they are not protected.
The bolded bit would be pretty simple* to at least systematically gather evidence on for review. My dashcam has a g force sensor, and if it detects acceleration in any axis greater than the set threshold for that axis, it marks the file name for the current snippet of footage with an "E" suffix, for an "Event". That way you can easily find the exact recording snippet showing a crash or bad pothole etc. With many police rocking bodycams now, these could be twinned with a holster sensor to detect when the gun is there, and to tag the snippet(s) of footage where the gun is not detected (and perhaps the proceeding and following couple) mark them with a "G" suffix, or "T" for Taser. The sensor could be a simple ferrous material proximity switch, or less easily spoofed, an RFID detector picking up a chip on the gun. Whenever an officer has "G" or "T" footage on their day's tape, it gets sent for review. This could be randomised out to reviewers with no connection to the officer/precinct etc. For simultaneous "G&T" suffixes, drinks are on that officer regardless of justification for drawing the weapons.

But it'll never happen.


*I'm sure there is vast complexity I haven't thought of.

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Re: US police & murders of black men

Post by dyqik » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:12 pm

The only complexity you haven't addressed is the desire of one US party to make ordinary decent human beings cry.

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