Have we got more narcissistic*?

[Stephanie]

And I mean we as a population, rather than people here specifically. I see a lot of it talked about in terms of social media, for instance this article here (which frames it terms of millennials, unhelpfully).

But was it always thus? People do love talking about themselves...

*I also realise that people throw around the term in a diagnostic sense, but that's not what I mean here.

ETA: I also think perhaps there are different kinds of narcissism. It's easier to focus on the selfies and anecdotes stuff, and miss some of the other subtler features...

[Woodchopper]

As far as I'm aware there are various psychological studies which show that narcissistic traits have or have not increased (depending upon how its defined and measured). So we probably don't know.

If there has been an increase I expect that causes may be down to things like children having reduced opportunities for unsupervised play with other children (which is a great way to develop empathy).

[Tessa K]

Vanity, which is part of what we now call narcissism, has been recognised as a problem for millenia, represented either as a sin, a target for satire and mockery or as a fatal flaw leading to misery. If it wasn't seen as such a problem it wouldn't have been made one of the Seven Deadly Sins (not to be confused with the other use of vain to mean futile). The term narcissism wasn't used before Freud so vanity covers all aspects of it.

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity or egotistic admiration of one's idealised self image and attributes... Narcissism is a concept in psychoanalytic theory, which was popularly introduced in Sigmund Freud's essay On Narcissism (1914).

In Vanity Fair (which is a good read) some of the characters are at the extreme of both vanity and narcisissism. As they are in the original from Pilgrim's Progress, but much less amusingly.

This is a long-winded (yes, I'm bored) way of saying I don't think it's a modern problem.

Concern about it sounds to me similar to the Is the Internet Eating Teenagers Brains? type of clickbaity headline, or complaints about a lack of empathy. There have always been vain, selfish, anti-social etc people - we all know some - and I suspect that the Internet and its spawnings just make them more salient.

Yes, some people really do love talking about themselves and being the centre of attention. Attention-seeking in this context is what my mum used to call showing off, a great sin. She also said constantly that it's what on the inside that matters which is so not true, especially for teenagers and women generally.

One small example: I've noticed as I've got a bit older that a certain type of man who was quite quiet earlier in life turns into a middle-aged windbag droning on and on about himself and his opinions at any opportunity, not interested in anyone else's opinions or feelings. If someone does manage to get a word in then the man just waits for them to draw breath to bring the conversation back to himself. I've met and been bored by so many of them. They're definitely not part of the selfie generation.

There's an argument to be made for the rise of the Individual as promoted by Thatcher et al at the expense of collectivism and social cohesion in which empathy plays a role but that's a different can of worms.

[lpm]

As far as I'm aware there are various psychological studies which show that narcissistic traits have or have not increased (depending upon how its defined and measured). So we probably don't know.

If there has been an increase I expect that causes may be down to things like children having reduced opportunities for unsupervised play with other children (which is a great way to develop empathy).

The idea behind minimum alcohol pricing in Scotland isn't that cheap cider increases alcoholic traits. It's that readily-available and very cheap alcohol leads to effortless over-consumption for those with existing traits.

There have always been people with narcissistic traits but it used to be quite costly to express them. You could seek the admiration of a circle of friends, or lack empathy with your family, or feel entitled to the attention of your MP or the GP's receptionist. But you needed to buy green ink and a stamp, few people would ever see the photo of you looking great, and the person of the supermarket checkout would glaze over when you told her about the meal you cooked yesterday.

It's instantaneous and cost free to do similar things today to a wider audience. 60 seconds spent commenting below a BBC piece gives an audience and the feeling of self-importance. A Facebook post on a minor success can gather in admiration from a wide circle. Anyone can seek global attention and get a hit of satisfaction when the world notices you. It's so quick and easy to create a world in which you think you are the centre of attention, over-estimating how much real notice you are getting.

Trump has made people much more aware of narcissistic personality disorders, probably leading to an increase in diagnoses, but we are maybe becoming less aware of routine narcissism - everyone appears to be a show-off online, leading to it feeling normal, when before people might say to themselves "she's a bit of a show off, he's pretty vain". Contrary to that article, I'd suggest we are less aware of these traits because of they are prevalent enough to seem normal.

Social media isn't the expression of these traits, it's more the multiplier of them. It is what allows you to buy 10 units of narcissist hits for £2.50 in a supermarket instead of 1 unit for £4 down the pub.

[Stephanie]

As far as I'm aware there are various psychological studies which show that narcissistic traits have or have not increased (depending upon how its defined and measured). So we probably don't know.

If there has been an increase I expect that causes may be down to things like children having reduced opportunities for unsupervised play with other children (which is a great way to develop empathy).

This article presents some arguments against https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2017 ... ot-so-fast (apologies for linking only to articles at the moment, not original research).

It also mentions Jean Twenge, who is fairly focused on this area - I understand there has been some criticism of her methods though.

I'm intrigued by the idea of it relating to play though, that's a fascinating thought.

[Stephanie]

Vanity, which is part of what we now call narcissism, has been recognised as a problem for millenia, represented either as a sin, a target for satire and mockery or as a fatal flaw leading to misery. If it wasn't seen as such a problem it wouldn't have been made one of the Seven Deadly Sins (not to be confused with the other use of vain to mean futile). The term narcissism wasn't used before Freud so vanity covers all aspects of it.

Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.

Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity or egotistic admiration of one's idealised self image and attributes... Narcissism is a concept in psychoanalytic theory, which was popularly introduced in Sigmund Freud's essay On Narcissism (1914).

In Vanity Fair (which is a good read) some of the characters are at the extreme of both vanity and narcisissism. As they are in the original from Pilgrim's Progress, but much less amusingly.

This is a long-winded (yes, I'm bored) way of saying I don't think it's a modern problem.

Concern about it sounds to me similar to the Is the Internet Eating Teenagers Brains? type of clickbaity headline, or complaints about a lack of empathy. There have always been vain, selfish, anti-social etc people - we all know some - and I suspect that the Internet and its spawnings just make them more salient.

Yes, some people really do love talking about themselves and being the centre of attention. Attention-seeking in this context is what my mum used to call showing off, a great sin. She also said constantly that it's what on the inside that matters which is so not true, especially for teenagers and women generally.

One small example: I've noticed as I've got a bit older that a certain type of man who was quite quiet earlier in life turns into a middle-aged windbag droning on and on about himself and his opinions at any opportunity, not interested in anyone else's opinions or feelings. If someone does manage to get a word in then the man just waits for them to draw breath to bring the conversation back to himself. I've met and been bored by so many of them. They're definitely not part of the selfie generation.

There's an argument to be made for the rise of the Individual as promoted by Thatcher et al at the expense of collectivism and social cohesion in which empathy plays a role but that's a different can of worms.

I do wonder about the clickbaity part of it, especially since it often refers to millennials as a catch all term for young people, as though older people, like you point out, aren't as guilty of it themselves. And the focus on selfies which seems to me to be a continuation of digs at stuff younger women like doing.

I am going to have to look up all these aspects that relate to empathy (since Woodchopper also mentioned one) and see if there's any interesting research there (or anyone else interested, feel free).

[Stephanie]

There have always been people with narcissistic traits but it used to be quite costly to express them. You could seek the admiration of a circle of friends, or lack empathy with your family, or feel entitled to the attention of your MP or the GP's receptionist. But you needed to buy green ink and a stamp, few people would ever see the photo of you looking great, and the person of the supermarket checkout would glaze over when you told her about the meal you cooked yesterday.

It's instantaneous and cost free to do similar things today to a wider audience. 60 seconds spent commenting below a BBC piece gives an audience and the feeling of self-importance. A Facebook post on a minor success can gather in admiration from a wide circle. Anyone can seek global attention and get a hit of satisfaction when the world notices you. It's so quick and easy to create a world in which you think you are the centre of attention, over-estimating how much real notice you are getting.

Trump has made people much more aware of narcissistic personality disorders, probably leading to an increase in diagnoses, but we are maybe becoming less aware of routine narcissism - everyone appears to be a show-off online, leading to it feeling normal, when before people might say to themselves "she's a bit of a show off, he's pretty vain". Contrary to that article, I'd suggest we are less aware of these traits because of they are prevalent enough to seem normal.

I agree that it's much easier to get noticed online than perhaps it would have done previously. But it's also not risk free. More exposure, leads to more people willing to disagree. And once it's gained a wider audience outside of the immediate circle, there's less incentive to be kind, or ignore it, or whatever. People will pile in on the person who is commenting under the BBC article, or make digs at the person posting a selfie.

Or are they included, as also trying to get attention?