Protesting during a pandemic (split)

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Herainestold
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:32 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:11 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:47 pm
To be honest I feel a bit uneasy about the protests because of covid
Me too. I'm not sure if they should have been organised, and I'm not sure if I'd have gone even if I lived walking distance from central London.

I just think saying that the organisers were motivated by thoughtlessness and stupidity is really quite (and I hate resorting to this word) offensive, given the circumstances. There was obviously a lot of debate amongst activists whether something should be organised, and plenty of activists were sharing advice on how to demonstrate safely. A huge amount of work goes into organising these things, and even mere attendees are more than capable of thinking, reading and discussing with others before they go.
I just think if you are a white person and you feel uneasy, stay at home, keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a POC, do what is right, no reason to explain it to a white person.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:32 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:11 pm
discovolante wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:47 pm
To be honest I feel a bit uneasy about the protests because of covid
Me too. I'm not sure if they should have been organised, and I'm not sure if I'd have gone even if I lived walking distance from central London.

I just think saying that the organisers were motivated by thoughtlessness and stupidity is really quite (and I hate resorting to this word) offensive, given the circumstances. There was obviously a lot of debate amongst activists whether something should be organised, and plenty of activists were sharing advice on how to demonstrate safely. A huge amount of work goes into organising these things, and even mere attendees are more than capable of thinking, reading and discussing with others before they go.
I just think if you are a white person and you feel uneasy, stay at home, keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a POC, do what is right, no reason to explain it to a white person.
It was by no means only white people feeling uneasy about those protests. And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk. But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:53 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:32 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:11 pm


Me too. I'm not sure if they should have been organised, and I'm not sure if I'd have gone even if I lived walking distance from central London.

I just think saying that the organisers were motivated by thoughtlessness and stupidity is really quite (and I hate resorting to this word) offensive, given the circumstances. There was obviously a lot of debate amongst activists whether something should be organised, and plenty of activists were sharing advice on how to demonstrate safely. A huge amount of work goes into organising these things, and even mere attendees are more than capable of thinking, reading and discussing with others before they go.
I just think if you are a white person and you feel uneasy, stay at home, keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a POC, do what is right, no reason to explain it to a white person.
It was by no means only white people feeling uneasy about those protests. And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk. But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
No white people should be dissing black peoples' actions or opinions or whatever. It should not be allowed here on this forum
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:04 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm
And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk. But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
Dominic Cummings said exactly the same. All we all slammed him for it.

It's depressing that the lockdown is being collapsed by the selfish elite, the right wing libertarians, the selfish minority - and now the progressive left.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:07 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:53 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:32 pm


I just think if you are a white person and you feel uneasy, stay at home, keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a POC, do what is right, no reason to explain it to a white person.
It was by no means only white people feeling uneasy about those protests. And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk. But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
No white people should be dissing black peoples' actions or opinions or whatever. It should not be allowed here on this forum
No non-Uighur should be promoting the regime that has put hundreds of thousands of Uighurs in camps, either.

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:04 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm
And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk. But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
Dominic Cummings said exactly the same. All we all slammed him for it.
I must have missed the Barnard Castle protest march. Which oppressed minority was Dominic Cummings protesting in support of?

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:21 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:32 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:11 pm


Me too. I'm not sure if they should have been organised, and I'm not sure if I'd have gone even if I lived walking distance from central London.

I just think saying that the organisers were motivated by thoughtlessness and stupidity is really quite (and I hate resorting to this word) offensive, given the circumstances. There was obviously a lot of debate amongst activists whether something should be organised, and plenty of activists were sharing advice on how to demonstrate safely. A huge amount of work goes into organising these things, and even mere attendees are more than capable of thinking, reading and discussing with others before they go.
I just think if you are a white person and you feel uneasy, stay at home, keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a POC, do what is right, no reason to explain it to a white person.
It was by no means only white people feeling uneasy about those protests. And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk.
This just isn't how the pandemic works. Do you think you only spread it to one person? That they never spread it? How the hell do you think it has been spreading so wildly? It is not ever acceptable to say "well I'm young, it doesn't matter if I spread the disease". Someone who cares for someone immunocompromised going to a mass gathering with chanting isn't just being a bit riskier, they are bordering on homicidal, and that flat full of young people - can you gaurantee they are all fully fit? That everyone else they meet is? The point of the lockdown was to cut in person interactions to the bare minimum to break the chains of transmission of a pandemic that has killed one Briton in every thousand, and is far from under control.

It is one of the strongest examples of how those with the privilege of being able-bodied utterly dismiss the welbeing of the infirm the moment it presents any inconvenience to them.
But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
Able-bodied people shouldn't be dismissing the experiences of disabled people on this either, especially given just how disproportionately the pandemic kills the infirm, and yet you keep doing so.

And we can tell how much thought they put into their attendance from the fact that they were calling for chanting.

If their protest had - through risks known to and ignored by organisers - burned down a care home with everyone in it, resident and staff, would you be arguing that we should be allowed to criticise them? Because the death toll of what they did could easily end up similar or worse.

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:22 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:04 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm
And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk. But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
Dominic Cummings said exactly the same. All we all slammed him for it.
I must have missed the Barnard Castle protest march. Which oppressed minority was Dominic Cummings protesting in support of?
And what is the epidemiological mechanism that means you can't get infected while protesting on behalf of an oppressed minority?

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:28 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 pm
I must have missed the Barnard Castle protest march. Which oppressed minority was Dominic Cummings protesting in support of?
Boris Johnson said, and I quote, "Certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be criticising Dominic Cummings for the decision he made without knowing what thought he put into his travel to a second home."
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:29 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:22 pm
dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 pm
lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:04 pm


Dominic Cummings said exactly the same. All we all slammed him for it.
I must have missed the Barnard Castle protest march. Which oppressed minority was Dominic Cummings protesting in support of?
And what is the epidemiological mechanism that means you can't get infected while protesting on behalf of an oppressed minority?
I'm sorry, I don't follow your argument here. This is a complete non-sequitur.

Why do you think I said that protesters are immune from coronavirus?

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:29 pm

Ignoring context doesn't make you look clever.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:31 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:28 pm
dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 pm
I must have missed the Barnard Castle protest march. Which oppressed minority was Dominic Cummings protesting in support of?
Boris Johnson said, and I quote, "Certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be criticising Dominic Cummings for the decision he made without knowing what thought he put into his travel to a second home."
I'd hoped that this kind of idiotic argument was beneath you. But, no, it appears not.

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:44 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:21 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:44 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:32 pm


I just think if you are a white person and you feel uneasy, stay at home, keep your thoughts to yourself. If you are a POC, do what is right, no reason to explain it to a white person.
It was by no means only white people feeling uneasy about those protests. And what is "right" would partly depend on individual circumstances - e.g. it's a lot riskier to go if you care for somebody immunocompromised than if you share a flat with other young people who were also attending, or if you'd have to take a bus rather than walk.
This just isn't how the pandemic works. Do you think you only spread it to one person? That they never spread it? How the hell do you think it has been spreading so wildly? It is not ever acceptable to say "well I'm young, it doesn't matter if I spread the disease". Someone who cares for someone immunocompromised going to a mass gathering with chanting isn't just being a bit riskier, they are bordering on homicidal, and that flat full of young people - can you gaurantee they are all fully fit? That everyone else they meet is? The point of the lockdown was to cut in person interactions to the bare minimum to break the chains of transmission of a pandemic that has killed one Briton in every thousand, and is far from under control.

It is one of the strongest examples of how those with the privilege of being able-bodied utterly dismiss the welbeing of the infirm the moment it presents any inconvenience to them.
But certainly people who have a wildly different set of experiences shouldn't be blanket dismissing all the protestors for the decision they made without knowing what thought they put into their attendance.
Able-bodied people shouldn't be dismissing the experiences of disabled people on this either, especially given just how disproportionately the pandemic kills the infirm, and yet you keep doing so.

And we can tell how much thought they put into their attendance from the fact that they were calling for chanting.

If their protest had - through risks known to and ignored by organisers - burned down a care home with everyone in it, resident and staff, would you be arguing that we should be allowed to criticise them? Because the death toll of what they did could easily end up similar or worse.
You have to compare that with the untold numbers whose lives have been/will be destroyed by white supremacy.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by EACLucifer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:52 pm

dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:29 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:22 pm
dyqik wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:11 pm

I must have missed the Barnard Castle protest march. Which oppressed minority was Dominic Cummings protesting in support of?
And what is the epidemiological mechanism that means you can't get infected while protesting on behalf of an oppressed minority?
I'm sorry, I don't follow your argument here. This is a complete non-sequitur.
No, it's the entire crux of the argument that you are deciding to ignore so you get to act self-righteous.

Protestor organisers in the UK decided to get a load of people together to chant, over an event in the States. In so doing, they have likely created a superspreading event. More people will thus die of coronavirus. While there obviously ongoing issues here, they need to be considered in context. Objecting to protests worsening coronavirus is not saying that people should disregard other issues because of coronavirus, it's saying that they should not actually spread coronavirus, especially when the chances of actually doing anything about the other issues are slim, as they are with the UK protests we are arguing about.

How many deaths do you think justify doing it that way, rather than sending messages of solidarity from home, or sending a few people to protest as distanced as possible, as was done at the Doctors not Martyrs protest?

Do you think that young able bodied people have the right to decide they are ok with spreading the disease and thus kill older and otherwise infirm people?
Why do you think I said that protesters are immune from coronavirus?
I don't, but you are acting like if you have a worthy cause then the elderly and disabled and medics and those who just get unlucky dealing with a disease that kills roughly one in every hundred that get it are acceptable collateral, even if the act that endangers them does not actually meaningfully advance that cause in any way.

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:05 pm

Mod hat on. There's enough going on in this thread without spurious accusations of racism. Don't do it. I've moved a post to the Pit and will move more as necessary.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:16 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:29 pm
Ignoring context doesn't make you look clever.
Exactly. Well said.

The context is:

- a pandemic killing over 200 UK citizens per day currently
- an urgent need for the UK to get the rate down fast
- a lockdown in force that makes gatherings illegal
- even more important than legality, the entire purpose and spirit of the rules are to prevent gatherings
- a high level of support across society for the lockdown, with the public being more enthusiastic than the government
- a high degree of solidarity with healthcare workers, key workers and the vulnerable, with thousands of people volunteering, joining local support groups and offering their services as citizens
- millions of people worried about their elderly loved ones, vulnerable loved ones and themselves
- deliberate attempts to sabotage the lockdown by right wing agitators, selfish elites and ignorant rule breakers

Ignoring the context also means ignoring solidarity, ignoring progressive principles and ignoring the wishes of our society.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Herainestold » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:17 pm

Certain posters/topics should be banned.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:19 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:05 pm
Mod hat on. There's enough going on in this thread without spurious accusations of racism. Don't do it. I've moved a post to the Pit and will move more as necessary.
? But you are choosing to ignore the spurious accusations of racism made by dyqik, EPD, Fishnut and yourself? Or are you about to move those too?
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by dyqik » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:21 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:19 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:05 pm
Mod hat on. There's enough going on in this thread without spurious accusations of racism. Don't do it. I've moved a post to the Pit and will move more as necessary.
? But you are choosing to ignore the spurious accusations of racism made by dyqik, EPD, Fishnut and yourself? Or are you about to move those too?
Feel free to report the actual accusations of racism.

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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:22 pm

I ain't no snitch.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Stephanie » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:22 pm

I'm about to quarantine the lot if this doesn't calm down
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:23 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:16 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:29 pm
Ignoring context doesn't make you look clever.
Exactly. Well said.

The context is:

- a pandemic killing over 200 UK citizens per day currently
- an urgent need for the UK to get the rate down fast
- a lockdown in force that makes gatherings illegal
- even more important than legality, the entire purpose and spirit of the rules are to prevent gatherings
- a high level of support across society for the lockdown, with the public being more enthusiastic than the government
- a high degree of solidarity with healthcare workers, key workers and the vulnerable, with thousands of people volunteering, joining local support groups and offering their services as citizens
- millions of people worried about their elderly loved ones, vulnerable loved ones and themselves
- deliberate attempts to sabotage the lockdown by right wing agitators, selfish elites and ignorant rule breakers

Ignoring the context also means ignoring solidarity, ignoring progressive principles and ignoring the wishes of our society.
That's part of the context, yes. I think all of us agree on that half.

Now list the rest of it and you'll have caught up.
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:24 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:22 pm
I ain't no snitch.
Stop resisting! *shoots lpm*
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by Bird on a Fire » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:24 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:22 pm
I'm about to quarantine the lot if this doesn't calm down
Soz
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Re: Protesting during a pandemic (split)

Post by lpm » Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:31 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 10:22 pm
I'm about to quarantine the lot if this doesn't calm down
Again, this is exactly what Boris Johnson said about Cummings. When everyone was angry about a blatant breach of the lockdown, he wanted them to calm down and move on.
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