Protesting during a pandemic (split)

[tom p]

I think this is a useful tweet for this discussion,

https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/12 ... 6191247361

Screenshot 2020-06-04 at 12.07.52.png

Coronavirus will come and go but systemic and institutional racism will remain unless we do something about it.

Indeedit will, and people should be organising serious and significant protests for when it is safe to do so.
Wait until coronavirus has gone, or until the risk of spreading it from holding a demo is so low that it's no worse than doing anything else in central london, and then hold the demo.
The point is not that people shouldn't protest, it's that now is a stupid time to so do.

[lpm]

dyqik, you do realise that the benefits of a mass gathering in Trafalgar doesn't actually include the end of the lifetime of systematic racist oppression? This is not about accepting a "temporary risk", as you like to call it, of spreading a deadly disease in return for solving oppression. This is adding one grain of sand to the multi-generational global struggle for justice, in return for damaging a desperately urgent public health crisis in one of the worst affected countries.

Nobody here has said stop protesting - there are safe ways.to protest, plus a wide range of more-safe ways - this is about individuals rejecting the lockdown in order to hold mass gatherings without masks and social distancing. Now you've supported the concept that individuals should make personal choices according to what they perceive to be important, you have ended your right to call for lockdowns - or indeed any other collective social action, such as on maternity leave, the minimum wage or climate. Either we unite for collective decisions or we segment into individual decisions based on personal importance - and you have chosen wrong.

[dyqik]

I think this is a useful tweet for this discussion,

https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/12 ... 6191247361

Screenshot 2020-06-04 at 12.07.52.png

Coronavirus will come and go but systemic and institutional racism will remain unless we do something about it.

Indeedit will, and people should be organising serious and significant protests for when it is safe to do so.
Wait until coronavirus has gone, or until the risk of spreading it from holding a demo is so low that it's no worse than doing anything else in central london, and then hold the demo.
The point is not that people shouldn't protest, it's that now is a stupid time to so do.

I don't know if you've noticed, but there's an election in November. Coronavirus won't be gone by then, but if Trump is re-elected, it means another four years lost on this.

OK, so protests in London won't be a major, or even a minor, factor in the election. But they are a factor in how the protests in the US are seen by at least some white US voters.

[tom p]

I think this is a useful tweet for this discussion,

https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status/12 ... 6191247361

Screenshot 2020-06-04 at 12.07.52.png

Coronavirus will come and go but systemic and institutional racism will remain unless we do something about it.

Indeedit will, and people should be organising serious and significant protests for when it is safe to do so.
Wait until coronavirus has gone, or until the risk of spreading it from holding a demo is so low that it's no worse than doing anything else in central london, and then hold the demo.
The point is not that people shouldn't protest, it's that now is a stupid time to so do.

I don't know if you've noticed, but there's an election in November. Coronavirus won't be gone by then, but if Trump is re-elected, it means another four years lost on this.

OK, so protests in London won't be a major, or even a minor, factor in the election. But they are a factor in how the protests in the US are seen by at least some white US voters.

A demo in London in June will be completely irrelevant in the USA in November. In fact they are probably completely irrelevant in the USA right now. Anything outside the borders of the USA is completely irrelevant to the citizens of that ridiculously insular land where only 42% have a passport and where they know nothing of the rest of the world
Black people in America can get killed just for existing, and this happens pretty much every day of the year.
the same is not true in the UK (according to this wikipedia page, there have been 2 killings by UK cops in 2020, both of them, while deeply regrettable are, I contend, understandable, and nothing like the murders that racist yankee pigs commit

[dyqik]

Indeedit will, and people should be organising serious and significant protests for when it is safe to do so.
Wait until coronavirus has gone, or until the risk of spreading it from holding a demo is so low that it's no worse than doing anything else in central london, and then hold the demo.
The point is not that people shouldn't protest, it's that now is a stupid time to so do.

I don't know if you've noticed, but there's an election in November. Coronavirus won't be gone by then, but if Trump is re-elected, it means another four years lost on this.

OK, so protests in London won't be a major, or even a minor, factor in the election. But they are a factor in how the protests in the US are seen by at least some white US voters.

A demo in London in June will be completely irrelevant in the USA in November. In fact they are probably completely irrelevant in the USA right now. Anything outside the borders of the USA is completely irrelevant to the citizens of that ridiculously insular land where only 42% have a passport and where they know nothing of the rest of the world
Black people in America can get killed just for existing, and this happens pretty much every day of the year.
the same is not true in the UK (according to this wikipedia page, there have been 2 killings by UK cops in 2020, both of them, while deeply regrettable are, I contend, understandable, and nothing like the murders that racist yankee pigs commit

It's not just about killings by police, but the whole spectrum of racist law enforcement.

And the US insularity is changing. The internet means that white Americans do see what is happening in other countries, particularly English speaking ones. BBC world news is broadcast across the US. The BBC and Daily Mail website and Australian news outlets pop up in links across US Facebook. In fact, that's how the toilet paper panic buying got started here.

[tom p]

And none of that makes holding a demo protesting US police racism in trafalgar square during a pandemic of an airborne disease that disproportionately harms BAME people any less stupid.

Racist UK cops are indeed an issue (but stop and search is not as bad as stop and choke) & they have been showing off their racism during lockdown too, but people would be better off using lockdown to organise effective means of protest and resistance & even taking over the cops (thanks to the stupid vote for police commissioner nonsense that the lib-dems foisted on us) than by killing their grannies.

[dyqik]

And none of that makes holding a demo protesting US police racism in trafalgar square during a pandemic of an airborne disease that disproportionately harms BAME people any less stupid.

Racist UK cops are indeed an issue (but stop and search is not as bad as stop and choke) & they have been showing off their racism during lockdown too, but people would be better off using lockdown to organise effective means of protest and resistance & even taking over the cops (thanks to the stupid vote for police commissioner nonsense that the lib-dems foisted on us) than by killing their grannies.

Again, that's your value judgement. You are using your values and your judgement to say that the risks of coronavirus are worse for them than them living with their feelings about racist law enforcement.

[monkey]

And none of that makes holding a demo protesting US police racism in trafalgar square during a pandemic of an airborne disease that disproportionately harms BAME people any less stupid.

Racist UK cops are indeed an issue (but stop and search is not as bad as stop and choke) & they have been showing off their racism during lockdown too, but people would be better off using lockdown to organise effective means of protest and resistance & even taking over the cops (thanks to the stupid vote for police commissioner nonsense that the lib-dems foisted on us) than by killing their grannies.

How racist do institutions have to be before protest is justified?

[tom p]

And none of that makes holding a demo protesting US police racism in trafalgar square during a pandemic of an airborne disease that disproportionately harms BAME people any less stupid.

Racist UK cops are indeed an issue (but stop and search is not as bad as stop and choke) & they have been showing off their racism during lockdown too, but people would be better off using lockdown to organise effective means of protest and resistance & even taking over the cops (thanks to the stupid vote for police commissioner nonsense that the lib-dems foisted on us) than by killing their grannies.

Again, that's your value judgement. You are using your values and your judgement to say that the risks of coronavirus are worse for them than them living with their feelings about racist law enforcement.

Nobody's f.cking feelings are worth a single life.
Idiot

[tom p]

And none of that makes holding a demo protesting US police racism in trafalgar square during a pandemic of an airborne disease that disproportionately harms BAME people any less stupid.

Racist UK cops are indeed an issue (but stop and search is not as bad as stop and choke) & they have been showing off their racism during lockdown too, but people would be better off using lockdown to organise effective means of protest and resistance & even taking over the cops (thanks to the stupid vote for police commissioner nonsense that the lib-dems foisted on us) than by killing their grannies.

How racist do institutions have to be before protest is justified?

Stupid comment is stupid.

[dyqik]

And none of that makes holding a demo protesting US police racism in trafalgar square during a pandemic of an airborne disease that disproportionately harms BAME people any less stupid.

Racist UK cops are indeed an issue (but stop and search is not as bad as stop and choke) & they have been showing off their racism during lockdown too, but people would be better off using lockdown to organise effective means of protest and resistance & even taking over the cops (thanks to the stupid vote for police commissioner nonsense that the lib-dems foisted on us) than by killing their grannies.

How racist do institutions have to be before protest is justified?

Stupid comment is stupid.

Ok. How bad does a disease have to be before protests aren't justified? I mean, you're fine with protesting during seasonal flu, I assume.

[tom p]

Unnecessarily putting a black nan's life at risk to protest unjustified killing of black people is like f.cking for virginity.
It doesn't matter how many stupid comments or specious arguments (there's a flu vaccine, you fucknuckle) are deployed, doesn't make your position any more pathetic and dishonourable.

[dyqik]

Unnecessarily putting a black nan's life at risk to protest unjustified killing of black people is like f.cking for virginity.
It doesn't matter how many stupid comments or specious arguments (there's a flu vaccine, you fucknuckle) are deployed, doesn't make your position any more pathetic and dishonourable.

I didn't realize that no one dies of seasonal flu because there's a vaccine.

[lpm]

Ok. How bad does a disease have to be before protests aren't justified? I mean, you're fine with protesting during seasonal flu, I assume.

Nobody is saying or has ever said protests aren't justified. You're deliberately distorting in order to carry on trolling. From the very beginning of the debate it was about mass gatherings in a different country with a very high infection rate not being justified.

[dyqik]

Ok. How bad does a disease have to be before protests aren't justified? I mean, you're fine with protesting during seasonal flu, I assume.

Nobody is saying or has ever said protests aren't justified. You're deliberately distorting in order to carry on trolling. From the very beginning of the debate it was about mass gatherings in a different country with a very high infection rate not being justified.

You clearly aren't listening to me if you think I'm trolling. As such, I'm not going to take any further part in this discussion.

[tom p]

Ok. How bad does a disease have to be before protests aren't justified? I mean, you're fine with protesting during seasonal flu, I assume.

Nobody is saying or has ever said protests aren't justified. You're deliberately distorting in order to carry on trolling. From the very beginning of the debate it was about mass gatherings in a different country with a very high infection rate not being justified.

You clearly aren't listening to me if you think I'm trolling. As such, I'm not going to take any further part in this discussion.

Then some good has come out of this discussion.

[lpm]

You clearly aren't listening to me if you think I'm trolling.

You clearly are the one who is not listening. From the fourth reply on this thread, by BoaF, there has been deliberate misrepresentation - in that case of EACL's meaning. You and others have been so eager to accuse people of racism that you have repeatedly and intentionally distorted what posts have said.

[Bird on a Fire]

From the fourth reply on this thread, by BoaF, there has been deliberate misrepresentation - in that case of EACL's meaning.

It certainly wasn't deliberate - what have I misunderstood?

[Bird on a Fire]

I didn't really expect this to kick off to such an extent. I thought I made a simple suggestion, to not call victims of racism "idiots" for demonstrating against it at the moment when it's had the most widespread sympathetic media attention in my (and therefore most protestors') lifetime.

As far as I can tell, the people who are really enthusiastic about their right to call the protestors idiots have all failed to listen to what the protests were about. While the shooting of George Floyd was a trigger, the London protestors were not just protesting against US police brutality, as lpm, tom p and EACLucifer keep claiming.

White people are freaking out about coronavirus, and rightly so - an undetectable, unpredictable threat might injure or kill you or your family at any moment when you leave your house. That is the daily lived experience of black and brown Britons who fear the consequences of structurally racist policy and practice in British policing, law enforcement and wider society, and has been since forever.

Racism is an additional coronavirus-level threat that communities of colour have been dealing with throughout your life. Until your posts acknowledge that, you are missing the point.

The fear you feel when you see a crowd of protestors is the same fear a lot of people feel when they see the police.

The protestors chose to confront the more entrenched and enduring existential threat that they have to face. Seeking to dismiss that as idiocy is a complete failure of understanding.


If you think failing to capitalise on unprecedented worldwide support is an attractive option for activists, you know nothing about organising for change.

If you are surprised that the protestors chose to show solidarity with other oppressed people around the world, rather than with the UK government's pisspoor coronavirus response, then you don't understand solidarity.

If you think it's racist to talk to the victims and beneficiaries of structural racism differently about that racism, you know nothing about racism.


I don't think anybody is deliberately trolling on this thread. But quite a few people are showing that they've managed to spend a whole lifetime without listening to victims of racism.

[Bird on a Fire]

I also like the assumption that protestors couldn't have talked to members of their household about it before attending.

I won't push back to hard on the claims that there were no masks or distancing, because even though photos and videos from the event clearly show that a lot of people were masked most of the time (as requested by organisers) and that most of the protest was a lot more distanced than a typical protest would be, there obviously was additional transmission risk despite the attempts made to minimise it.

[Bird on a Fire]

Interviews with some of the London protestors on the BBC, if anyone is interested in why members of the UK's black community felt moved to show solidarity with protestors in the US.

Seeing as many people missed this the first time, I'll post some quotes here.

"It's just very frustrating, I'm very angry and very tired. To constantly be hearing about black people being aimlessly killed for no reason is draining," Shayne says.

"We have our issues within the black community but we are still very united.

"The prejudice that black people in America face is the same prejudice we face here. When one is hurt, we're all hurt, because it could have been us."

Eyram says people think the UK is more progressive on race than America, "when actually it isn't".

The UK Home Office was accused of racism following the Windrush scandal - when black people who came to Britain as children were wrongly told they were here illegally and deported or threatened with deportation.

"Race clearly played a part in what occurred," the long-awaited review into what happened said earlier this year.

The Grenfell Tower fire in 2017 and the Windrush scandal were mentioned by rapper Dave when he called Prime Minister Boris Johnson racist during a performance at the Brit Awards after winning album of the year - causing Home Secretary Priti Patel to defend the PM.

Eyram says racism in the UK is institutionalised and also evident in schools - where Black Caribbean pupils are more likely to be excluded than White British pupils - and the workplace.

"There's a lot of more covert things that have happened to us and still happen to us, like when we were in school they policed black people's hair, we weren't allowed certain hairstyles or colours even though our white counterparts were able to dye their hair any colour," she says.

"In the workplace, there's always micro-aggressions. Everyone I know has experienced some sort of ignorant comment at the hands of a fellow employee or even an employer.

"Just because it's so subtle and it's not overt, it doesn't mean it's not racist."

[Bird on a Fire]

And none of that makes holding a demo protesting US police racism in trafalgar square during a pandemic of an airborne disease that disproportionately harms BAME people any less stupid.

Racist UK cops are indeed an issue (but stop and search is not as bad as stop and choke) & they have been showing off their racism during lockdown too, but people would be better off using lockdown to organise effective means of protest and resistance & even taking over the cops (thanks to the stupid vote for police commissioner nonsense that the lib-dems foisted on us) than by killing their grannies.

How racist do institutions have to be before protest is justified?

Stupid comment is stupid.

Meta.

[discovolante]

"Just because it's so subtle and it's not overt, it doesn't mean it's not racist."

Yes there seems to be a lot of comparison with black people being directly killed by the police while ignoring other aspects of oppression.

To be honest I feel a bit uneasy about the protests because of covid, but then I am sitting up here in the Scottish countryside without having to worry about the impact racism has on my life. I'm conscious that seeing the protests is no doubt even more worrying for white people who are at particular risk from coronavirus. I'm also sure that like any protest there are people just along for kicks or trouble or whatever, but I get the general impression that George Floyd's murder has just caused something to snap in a lot of people and they have had enough, and something had to give.

Even putting aside the anti-racism rationality behind it - it is summer, people have been cooped up for weeks hearing nothing but sh.t news, the UK government has been almost uniquely sh.t at communicating with people about how they should behave, particularly in London people are probably in hot crowded living spaces, and they have recently been told that it's more or less OK to start going outside again. This isn't a protest that suddenly arose out of the middle of a tight lockdown. If people are going off on their jollies to the beach for a holiday then why not go on a protest for your life?

[Herainestold]

While obviously not as bad as Amerika, it would be good to know how many Black peoples lives are ended prematurely in the UK.

[Bird on a Fire]

To be honest I feel a bit uneasy about the protests because of covid

Me too. I'm not sure if they should have been organised, and I'm not sure if I'd have gone even if I lived walking distance from central London.

I just think saying that the organisers were motivated by thoughtlessness and stupidity is really quite (and I hate resorting to this word) offensive, given the circumstances. There was obviously a lot of debate amongst activists whether something should be organised, and plenty of activists were sharing advice on how to demonstrate safely. A huge amount of work goes into organising these things, and even mere attendees are more than capable of thinking, reading and discussing with others before they go.