Scrutable

jdc wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:30 pm

JQH wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:18 pm

MonkeyWrench wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:56 pm

So you object to boomers, but thick f.ckers who would normally holiday in Benidorm or Magaluf (read poor people) is okay?
Good to know.

Do re-read the thread to find where I have made any comment about anybody's choice of holiday destination. I think you will find I have made none.

It wasn't you who made the comment about holidays, and Monkey Wrench didn't accuse you of making it. You were one of the people who objected to the 'boomer' comment but not the 'Benidorm' one, and it looked to me like he was asking you (along with the others who did likewise) if you're okay with that bit of snobbery.

For the removal of doubt, no I'm not OK with it. I'm sure those who only objected to the "Benidorm" comment are not OK with anti-boomer prejudice either.

Well there was a string of posts objecting to boomers and not a peep about the (older) Benidorm comment when MW posted, so I can understand why he posed that question.

I can also understand why subsequent posters complaining about Benidorm didn't feel the need to go back to the boomer comment when it had already been dealt with by a number of irate posters.

What he said ^

I'll add for the record that I'm definitely not ok with spurious accusations against boomers like the one in this thread. And that ageism is specifically against the forum rules. Nobody reported the post (but I have now).

Oh Christ. FFS.

WTF is going on?

I was referring to the “Brits abroad” type of person. There a plenty of examples of knobs ruining holiday destinations with their terrible behaviour.

Sorry if equating this to terrible behaviour at British destinations has triggered something. But I see a parallel.

Eg: https://inews.co.uk/news/brits-abroad-i ... own-280730

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/brits-ab ... -12406236/

headshot wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:15 pm

Oh Christ. FFS.

WTF is going on?

I was referring to the “Brits abroad” type of person. There a plenty of examples of knobs ruining holiday destinations with their terrible behaviour.

Sorry if equating this to terrible behaviour at British destinations has triggered something. But I see a parallel.

Eg: https://inews.co.uk/news/brits-abroad-i ... own-280730

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/brits-ab ... -12406236/

FWIW I associated the stereotype with a certain kind of middle class - the sort that reads the express and is contemptuous of education. Perhaps that's an unfair stereotype too, but its not necessarily one of the working class.

This morning. At least we know the police are getting involved now.

jdc wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:45 pm

Well there was a string of posts objecting to boomers and not a peep about the (older) Benidorm comment when MW posted, so I can understand why he posed that question.

I can also understand why subsequent posters complaining about Benidorm didn't feel the need to go back to the boomer comment when it had already been dealt with by a number of irate posters.

Fair point.

If I'm honest I was reacting as much against the poster as the posting; I've grown slightly sick of his posting of pro PRC propaganda and refusal to engage with EACLucifer when he points out the crimes of the regime. If the exact same post had been made by A.N.Other I'd've thought "tw.t!" and moved on.

So I'll move on.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:10 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:15 pm

Oh Christ. FFS.

WTF is going on?

I was referring to the “Brits abroad” type of person. There a plenty of examples of knobs ruining holiday destinations with their terrible behaviour.

Sorry if equating this to terrible behaviour at British destinations has triggered something. But I see a parallel.

Eg: https://inews.co.uk/news/brits-abroad-i ... own-280730

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/16/brits-ab ... -12406236/

FWIW I associated the stereotype with a certain kind of middle class - the sort that reads the express and is contemptuous of education. Perhaps that's an unfair stereotype too, but its not necessarily one of the working class.

I don’t know any sort of middle class that is contemptuous of education. Contemptuous of school teachers, ok, but not education. Of course my own experience may be limited.

It‘s easy to make the association with the louts who give us a bad name in holiday destinations, with other sorts of antisocial behaviour. But I wonder if behaving badly (for a certain value of badly) abroad, while on holiday, is actually correlated closely with littering, fly tipping and whatnot at home. Of course it’s very English to put things down to class, but knowing that we have that tendency is why I tend to question it (ETA as a second thought after having first jumped to a conclusion that involves class).

JQH wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:05 am

jdc wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:45 pm

Well there was a string of posts objecting to boomers and not a peep about the (older) Benidorm comment when MW posted, so I can understand why he posed that question.

I can also understand why subsequent posters complaining about Benidorm didn't feel the need to go back to the boomer comment when it had already been dealt with by a number of irate posters.

Fair point.

If I'm honest I was reacting as much against the poster as the posting; I've grown slightly sick of his posting of pro PRC propaganda and refusal to engage with EACLucifer when he points out the crimes of the regime. If the exact same post had been made by A.N.Other I'd've thought "tw.t!" and moved on.

So I'll move on.

Ditto.

Apologies for my epic rant earlier on the thread that didn't actually contribute anything helpful.

I will just add, however, that while the majority of people seen to be congregating in the reservoir location were groups of young men, there were clearly other people behaving badly as well and shocking as it may seem ( ), the rubbish included champagne bottles and sushi wrappers. I think the conclusion has to be that all kinds people can be selfish, inconsiderate a..eholes.

As to why the level of littering has gone up, I have two thoughts - one that I think is unarguable and the other that is very arguable.

First, there are just more people congregating in outdoor locations - partly because that's all that's allowed (although they have certainly not all been legal gatherings) but especially because the weather was abnormally glorious, at least until last week. So even if each person is leaving the same amount of litter on average as the average person left before, there'll be more litter.

Secondly, and perhaps more contentiously, I think the people who have been going to the various outdoor places have not been the same type of people who previously went. I am not implying any judgement about who those people are, by age, class or anything else. By type I mean that they are probably generally people who do NOT normally spend much time in outdoor beauty spots. Perhaps under more normal circumstances, they would have gathered in a pub, in a restaurant, in someone's house at a dinner party, what/wherever. In many/most/all of these places, someone else normally clears up most of the mess afterwards, except perhaps in someone else's house where nice people will clear up after themselves somewhat. So maybe they are just not used to tidying up after themselves when they go out. Clearly, you'd have to be terminally stupid to think that someone is going to clear up after you in a nature reserve in the same way as they do in a pub, but people don't always think about what they're doing or the consequences and especially not when they're in a group and/or have had a few drinks. And if you're not in the habit of behaving in a particular way - ie packing up your rubbish and taking it home with you - you may well end up taking the path of least resistance, especially after a few drinks, and just leaving stuff behind you. And of course, as soon as one group has done it, others will use the age-old justification of "well, they did it, so it's ok for us to do it".

So I don't think that there's particularly been a change in the way any individual would behave when finding themselves in a particular situation, it's just that a lot of people are finding themselves in very different situations from their normal life, so one of the end results of the accumulation of all those different people in different situations is mountains of rubbish in places where there'd normally be much less. On the upside, pubs and restaurants are lovely and tidy and lacking in rubbish at the moment.

bagpuss wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:54 am

As to why the level of littering has gone up, I have two thoughts <snip>

Also, there may be fewer people picking it up, with both council workers and volunteers being kept away. The place where I do litter-picking still doesn't want us to come in even though it's mostly open -- I think they've got one person doing it. I'm slightly diffident about going back TBH, being cautious about the hygiene aspects of it -- I've ranted in The Other Place about the number of tissues I have to pick up.

In good news, though, I can say that I seldom see fag ends or packets these days, a huge change from a few years ago.

In bad news, I have seen loads of little black patches of burnt grass where fuckwits have had disposable barbecues, after the driest sunniest May since records began. I would cheerfully ban them.

There was a piece on the beeb about this recently: Why litter is surging as lockdowns ease.

Several factors highlighted, including:
- genuine lack of provision/emptying of bins due to covid
- more picknicking/takeaways with disposable goods, due to covid
- social factors related to stress, community membership, etc.

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:11 pm

There was a piece on the beeb about this recently: Why litter is surging as lockdowns ease.

Several factors highlighted, including:
- genuine lack of provision/emptying of bins due to covid
- more picknicking/takeaways with disposable goods, due to covid
- social factors related to stress, community membership, etc.

Laziness. Dickishness.

All of the litter I've seen could be kept in a bag and taken home, or put in a bin that isn't full. If you can take the containers/wrappers to the picnic (or whatever) you can take them home and bin them properly.

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:22 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:11 pm

There was a piece on the beeb about this recently: Why litter is surging as lockdowns ease.

Several factors highlighted, including:
- genuine lack of provision/emptying of bins due to covid
- more picknicking/takeaways with disposable goods, due to covid
- social factors related to stress, community membership, etc.

Laziness. Dickishness.

All of the litter I've seen could be kept in a bag and taken home, or put in a bin that isn't full. If you can take the containers/wrappers to the picnic (or whatever) you can take them home and bin them properly.

Before rushing to judgement like this, check out my earlier post on the subject, and also note the first point on the post you are responding to.

Yes, people absolutely should not leave waste, but there's not much point taking it home if it can't then be collected.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:25 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:22 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:11 pm

There was a piece on the beeb about this recently: Why litter is surging as lockdowns ease.

Several factors highlighted, including:
- genuine lack of provision/emptying of bins due to covid
- more picknicking/takeaways with disposable goods, due to covid
- social factors related to stress, community membership, etc.

Laziness. Dickishness.

All of the litter I've seen could be kept in a bag and taken home, or put in a bin that isn't full. If you can take the containers/wrappers to the picnic (or whatever) you can take them home and bin them properly.

Before rushing to judgement like this, check out my earlier post on the subject, and also note the first point on the post you are responding to.

Yes, people absolutely should not leave waste, but there's not much point taking it home if it can't then be collected.

Yes there is, because if you take it home you're not being a littering c.nt.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:25 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:22 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:11 pm

There was a piece on the beeb about this recently: Why litter is surging as lockdowns ease.

Several factors highlighted, including:
- genuine lack of provision/emptying of bins due to covid
- more picknicking/takeaways with disposable goods, due to covid
- social factors related to stress, community membership, etc.

Laziness. Dickishness.

All of the litter I've seen could be kept in a bag and taken home, or put in a bin that isn't full. If you can take the containers/wrappers to the picnic (or whatever) you can take them home and bin them properly.

Before rushing to judgement like this, check out my earlier post on the subject, and also note the first point on the post you are responding to.

Yes, people absolutely should not leave waste, but there's not much point taking it home if it can't then be collected.

So, just leave it anywhere then? Dump it on a hillside? A country lane? What a useless excuse.

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:02 pm

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:25 pm

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:22 pm

Laziness. Dickishness.

All of the litter I've seen could be kept in a bag and taken home, or put in a bin that isn't full. If you can take the containers/wrappers to the picnic (or whatever) you can take them home and bin them properly.

Before rushing to judgement like this, check out my earlier post on the subject, and also note the first point on the post you are responding to.

Yes, people absolutely should not leave waste, but there's not much point taking it home if it can't then be collected.

So, just leave it anywhere then? Dump it on a hillside? A country lane? What a useless excuse.

Not trying to make excuses. Trying to explain the f.cking reality to people who don't want to see it. When I lived in one of the poorest parts of my city, bins were routinely not collected. If an area was to be missed, it was us. On one occassion, it was two months between collections. And a bin wouldn't be taken if the lid wouldn't close, regardless of how many collections were missed. Most people didn't have cars, and the nearest tip was miles away - doubt bus companies or cab drivers would be happy taking bags of refuse. If people don't have good options, they resort to bad ones.

Yes - my mum lives in a relatively well-to-do area, and has still had reduced bin collections and noticed a lot of littering and flytipping (they also closed the city dump).

It doesn't make littering ok, but it does make it more understandable - leave your litter with the rest, or carry it around with you all afternoon? Obviously a lot of people will choose the former, unfortunately.

headshot wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:22 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:11 pm

There was a piece on the beeb about this recently: Why litter is surging as lockdowns ease.

Several factors highlighted, including:
- genuine lack of provision/emptying of bins due to covid
- more picknicking/takeaways with disposable goods, due to covid
- social factors related to stress, community membership, etc.

Laziness. Dickishness.

All of the litter I've seen could be kept in a bag and taken home, or put in a bin that isn't full. If you can take the containers/wrappers to the picnic (or whatever) you can take them home and bin them properly.

If I understand correctly, they're trying to explain an increase in littering. I'd be surprised if people were more lazy and dickish than they used to be, it seems more plausible that the increase can be explained by the factors suggested in the article.

jdc wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:22 am

I'd be surprised if people were more lazy and dickish than they used to be

I actually am, to be fair.

I don't go as far as littering, but I am lazy and dickish (more so than previously).

Just to draw a distinction, if one were needed between littering and flytipping. We have a huge backlog of stuff-to-take-to-the-dump, because the dump was closed 'cos covid and now it's open they are only accepting garden waste that I put on the compost heap anyway. (We have green bins for garden waste, if your garden generates too much waste for that, then you have room for a bonfire or compost heap surely?)

But when the tip is open there are so many barriers to actually f.cking using it that the easier option by far is to just dump the lot. But it's not a dump, it's a recycling centre staffed by petty busibodies telling you off for bringing mixed waste and making you sort the stuff into skips 30 yards apart and you have to book a slot 'cos covid. And you have to bring proof you live in Lincolnshire, no trailer, no vans only a given number of trips per month. Bedfordshire found out years ago that it was counter-productive to work like that as you spent more money on clearing up fly tipped waste.

EACLucifer wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:17 pm

Not trying to make excuses. Trying to explain the f.cking reality to people who don't want to see it. When I lived in one of the poorest parts of my city, bins were routinely not collected. If an area was to be missed, it was us. On one occassion, it was two months between collections. And a bin wouldn't be taken if the lid wouldn't close, regardless of how many collections were missed. Most people didn't have cars, and the nearest tip was miles away - doubt bus companies or cab drivers would be happy taking bags of refuse. If people don't have good options, they resort to bad ones.

We have that problem round here though never gone quite that long without collections.

I've never understood the logic behind "If the lid won't close, we won't collect."