Littering

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tom p
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Re: Littering

Post by tom p » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:51 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:17 pm
headshot wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:02 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:25 pm


Before rushing to judgement like this, check out my earlier post on the subject, and also note the first point on the post you are responding to.

Yes, people absolutely should not leave waste, but there's not much point taking it home if it can't then be collected.
So, just leave it anywhere then? Dump it on a hillside? A country lane? What a useless excuse.
Not trying to make excuses. Trying to explain the f.cking reality to people who don't want to see it. When I lived in one of the poorest parts of my city, bins were routinely not collected. If an area was to be missed, it was us. On one occassion, it was two months between collections. And a bin wouldn't be taken if the lid wouldn't close, regardless of how many collections were missed. Most people didn't have cars, and the nearest tip was miles away - doubt bus companies or cab drivers would be happy taking bags of refuse. If people don't have good options, they resort to bad ones.
You were responding to people complaining about littering in a beauty spot. Littering is typically small items which could be disposed of in a bin elsewhere. Getting to beauty spots needs cars or bikes.
All of the arguments you have made are sh.t.
Litterer = c.nt. No excuses, it's just pure c.nty and selfish &the punishment should be one of those litter-picking ski-poles in the foot

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Stephanie
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Re: Littering

Post by Stephanie » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am

Or... we could have more bins and actually collect the rubbish?

Seems as though that could help solve the issue.

Unless this was just an all purpose grumble thread, in which case, it's in the wrong part of the forum.
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Re: Littering

Post by Vertigowooyay » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:15 am

Littering is pretty much a consequence-free offense (as opposed to fly tipping which has much harsher penalties). Everyone knows you shouldn’t do it. So dropping a crisp packet or fast food wrapper or plastic bottle before you can find a bin is really just a selfish tw.t signifier because the person dropping it has made a choice based on what they should/shouldn’t do. And being a selfish tw.t cuts across many demographics.
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Re: Littering

Post by Gfamily » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:34 am

Stephanie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am
Or... we could have more bins and actually collect the rubbish?

Seems as though that could help solve the issue.

Unless this was just an all purpose grumble thread, in which case, it's in the wrong part of the forum.
There's a basic problem with litter bins in beauty spots, in that they get most use at weekends & Bank Holidays, when the people who empty them aren't working.
When they're full it's going to be tempting to leave bags of rubbish beside them, "so they can be collected next time", but that's not ideal - particularly if containing any sort of waste that would attract vermin.

More bins would help, but then they just 'litter' the beauty spots themselves. Maybe the larger industrial bins could be placed near the carparks and signs saying "if the litter bins are full, please dispose of your rubbish here"

As for fly tipping, we used to regularly get stuff fly tipped in our church car park - generally it was either dumped by a cowboy 'garden maintenance' team or from someone who did 'rip out your kitchen cabinets' work. My assumption was that the stuff generally wasn't dumped by the previous owner, but they'd paid someone to take it away.
On the other hand, other places nearby would get mattresses and old furniture dumped, and i'm not sure its got much worse since the lockdown (probably because people haven't been able to replace them). It's likely to get worse now I guess.
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malbui
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Re: Littering

Post by malbui » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:56 am

Boustrophedon wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:29 am
But when the tip is open there are so many barriers to actually f.cking using it that the easier option by far is to just dump the lot. But it's not a dump, it's a recycling centre staffed by petty busibodies telling you off for bringing mixed waste and making you sort the stuff into skips 30 yards apart and you have to book a slot 'cos covid. And you have to bring proof you live in Lincolnshire, no trailer, no vans only a given number of trips per month. Bedfordshire found out years ago that it was counter-productive to work like that as you spent more money on clearing up fly tipped waste.
Around here we had a lot of publicity two or three years ago about a change to access restrictions to the local tip, with each household receiving an electronic key fob that would open the barriers so that only local residents could get in. This was apparently motivated by the sight of cars registered elsewhere (and even, the horror, just over the border) dumping the contents of their cellars on our municipally-funded site. This policy was abandoned after about three months and the barriers left open because of the frankly impressive quantities of fly-tipping around the site and along neighbouring countryside lanes. Sometimes realism has to prevail.
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Re: Littering

Post by headshot » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:42 pm

jdc wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:22 am
headshot wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:22 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:11 pm
There was a piece on the beeb about this recently: Why litter is surging as lockdowns ease.

Several factors highlighted, including:
- genuine lack of provision/emptying of bins due to covid
- more picknicking/takeaways with disposable goods, due to covid
- social factors related to stress, community membership, etc.
Laziness. Dickishness.

All of the litter I've seen could be kept in a bag and taken home, or put in a bin that isn't full. If you can take the containers/wrappers to the picnic (or whatever) you can take them home and bin them properly.
If I understand correctly, they're trying to explain an increase in littering. I'd be surprised if people were more lazy and dickish than they used to be, it seems more plausible that the increase can be explained by the factors suggested in the article.
See my earlier posts. My suspicion is that a higher proportion of lazy and dickish people are visiting beauty spots and leaving litter there. We’ve noticed a massive influx of large groups of people gathering over the local hills just outside Brum and the litter is noticeably worse. Admittedly, there are no bins there because it’s just hills and woodland.

The vast majority are in cars, having driven from the ‘burbs of city centre. I actively encourage people meeting up and going for walks in the hills (within the Covid rules) but many people are leaving behind lots of waste. Many even bag up the bits of litter, but they just leave the bags there, which is similar to picking dog sh.t up and hanging the bag in a tree.

It would be very simple for them to take it home, but they don’t. I simply don’t buy the excuses listed so far.

Fly tipping is a different matter. I suspect a lot of that is organised people getting paid to collect waste and just dumping it.

It’s not hard just to take it home. And afaik, the weekly bin collections here haven’t been interrupted, though the tip closed for a few weeks.

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Re: Littering

Post by bagpuss » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:52 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:34 am
Stephanie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am
Or... we could have more bins and actually collect the rubbish?

Seems as though that could help solve the issue.

Unless this was just an all purpose grumble thread, in which case, it's in the wrong part of the forum.
There's a basic problem with litter bins in beauty spots, in that they get most use at weekends & Bank Holidays, when the people who empty them aren't working.
When they're full it's going to be tempting to leave bags of rubbish beside them, "so they can be collected next time", but that's not ideal - particularly if containing any sort of waste that would attract vermin.

More bins would help, but then they just 'litter' the beauty spots themselves. Maybe the larger industrial bins could be placed near the carparks and signs saying "if the litter bins are full, please dispose of your rubbish here"

As for fly tipping, we used to regularly get stuff fly tipped in our church car park - generally it was either dumped by a cowboy 'garden maintenance' team or from someone who did 'rip out your kitchen cabinets' work. My assumption was that the stuff generally wasn't dumped by the previous owner, but they'd paid someone to take it away.
On the other hand, other places nearby would get mattresses and old furniture dumped, and i'm not sure its got much worse since the lockdown (probably because people haven't been able to replace them). It's likely to get worse now I guess.
There are other problems too. Many beauty spots are not that close to roads, so emptying bins isn't all that easy. Plenty of people are happy to walk 20 minutes each way to a lovely picnicking spot but it isn't practical to expect rubbish bin emptiers to walk 20 minutes each way to empty a bin.

Also, the volume of litter went through the roof recently. At the reservoir I mentioned before, there is a litter bin in the layby and I don't know how often it is emptied as I never go that way (I run in from the opposite side) but in any case, the local resident I mentioned before collected 4 bin bags full of rubbish from the surrounds of the reservoir less than 48 hours after he'd already collected 2 bin bags full. Even assuming no other rubbish got put in the bin (and it did, it was overflowing), you'd have to empty that bin twice a day to keep up. And that's a bin in a minor country layby that probably doesn't normally need emptying more than once or twice a week. I doubt very much that the council has the spare staff to massively increase their bin-emptying rounds practically overnight to keep up with that kind of unpredictable increase. I have to wonder whether that rubbish would have been put in any bin in any case. Did everyone leaving rubbish really notice that the layby bin was overflowing on the way in and think "Well, I would have taken my rubbish to the bin but since it's full, I have no option but to just chuck this into the reservoir/shove it into the bushes"? It seems unlikely somehow.

Yes, more bins emptied more often would eradicate the issue of overflowing bins and would probably help a little bit with other rubbish, where people have dropped it after getting fed up with carrying it after trying to find a bin to put it in. But most of what I've seen of the problem has been of people just leaving the litter where they sat and not even attempting to carry it anywhere to find a bin.

In the woods in the other direction from where I live, since the cafe has now opened for takeaway, there are empty coffee cups and various wrappers being left all over the place, even though there are plenty of bins near the cafe and car park which are emptied pretty frequently (at least they are normally and I've not noticed them being overflowing when I've run past them recently). The simplest conclusion is that people just can't be bothered to carry an empty coffee cup with them on their walk. I sympathise - it's annoying to carry, and if you crumple it up and shove it in your pocket, you end up with dregs leaking onto your clothes. And it takes long enough to drink a coffee that by the time you've finished, you're too far into the woods to just nip back to a bin. But I still really don't understand the mentality of someone who thinks it's ok to just leave it on the ground for the litter fairies to sort out. And again, I'm not sure adding more bins around all the paths would be viable - even if you just put them on the most well-trodden paths, someone is still going to have to walk round all of those routes, each of which would take several tens of minutes even without stopping to empty bins, carrying full bin bags. So probably several hours a day of someone's time to empty them once a day. But that costs significant money and where's the money going to come from?


I'm really not sure what the solution is, other than punishment (but then they need to be caught and that costs money and who pays for that?
I can't see the police having the resources to stake out all the local beauty spots, even if they were willing), education (but how to reach the right people, and what would convince them to change their behaviour?), or closing all the beauty spots because a few people can't be trusted to behave responsibly.

Our local reservoir has addressed the problem by putting together a rota of volunteers to pick up the litter every day. But I don't think that's viable long term, or fair to expect it of people.

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Re: Littering

Post by tom p » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:33 pm

Stephanie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am
Or... we could have more bins and actually collect the rubbish?

Seems as though that could help solve the issue.

Unless this was just an all purpose grumble thread, in which case, it's in the wrong part of the forum.
It's lovely to imagine that if only there were more bins, then litter louts wouldn't litter. It's purely a function of poor facility management. But that isn't even close to the case. Everyone must have seen empty bins with litter nearby. In my local park in Enfield there were 2 bins within 10 metres of a shelter that antisocial c.nts liked to hang out in. Neither ever full. Always litter after said c.nts had been there. I could give countless other examples.

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Stephanie
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Re: Littering

Post by Stephanie » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:45 pm

Right, but I was just trying to prompt a bit of discussion beyond "cor, what c.nts", fascinating as that may be to some of you.
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malbui
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Re: Littering

Post by malbui » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:00 pm

Last summer I visited the lovely Illas Cíes off the coast of Galicia. Before you embark, they warn you there are no littler bins on the islands, explain the savage penalties for littering, and give you a garbage bag to carry with you and to return to port in Vigo with. I rather liked that.
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Fishnut
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Re: Littering

Post by Fishnut » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:10 pm

This is an interesting paper on littering. It's called Litter and Social Practices by Liz Brooks & Simin Davoud (2017). They point out that,
According to the environmental charity Keep Britain Tidy, while only 28% of people admit to it, in fact around 62% of people have dropped litter (Keep Britain Tidy, 2013: 4). The real figures for litter deposition are probably even higher if unintentional or unknowing instances of littering are included, such as dropping a receipt or a morsel of food consumed ‘on the go’.
They note that in addition to the obvious examples of littering, there is
a type of litter that is only beginning to gain public awareness – personal hygiene items, such as cotton buds, unthinkingly disposed of through the sewerage system, then accumulating as litter in marine areas.
I thought that solids got filtered out at the sewage treatment plants but it seems that I was wrong.

In terms of tackling litter,
Each nation appears to target its anti-littering interventions to a particular set of actors. In current UK policy, there is a strong emphasis on getting individuals to take responsibility for their anti-social behaviour in creating the blight and to change their behaviour, for example, through fixed-penalty notices and Community Protection Notices (CPNs), while in countries such as France and Australia, there is greater pressure on industry to develop more environmentally friendly packaging, through legislative and advisory means.
I remember hearing about how the anti-littering campaigns of the mid-20th century were created by food and drinks corporations. Keep America Beautiful is a case in point:
Keep America Beautiful was founded in 1953 by the American Can Co. and the Owens-Illinois Glass Co., who were later joined by the likes of Coca-Cola and the Dixie Cup Co...

The shift from Keep America Beautiful’s bland admonishments about litter to the Crying Indian did not represent an embrace of ecological values but instead indicated industry’s fear of them. In the time leading up to the first Earth Day in 1970, environmental demonstrations across the United States focused on the issue of throwaway containers. All these protests held industry — not consumers — responsible for the proliferation of disposable items that depleted natural resources and created a solid waste crisis. Enter the Crying Indian, a new public relations effort that incorporated ecological values but deflected attention from beverage and packaging industry practices.
I'm no fan of littering (I even started litter picking while walking the dog earlier in the year) but it's a more complicated issue than just "bad people litter". Davoudi and Brooks note that "the main demographic attributes associated with littering [are] youth and low income" and that,
...by penalising the weakest actors in the littering spectrum with regressive fines such as fixed-penalty notices and by placing them in the ambit of the criminal justice system through CPNs (breach of which can be a criminal offence) current policies have the potential to further marginalise the vulnerable groups most likely to litter and beyond this, may bring even bring into question the fairness of the justice system.
While the Brooks & Davoudi don't directly discuss the impact on littering, they do note the rise of gig-economy jobs such as uber- and delivery-drivers. If you're unable to take a proper lunch-break and need your vehicle to look respectable it's not unsurprising that the obvious option is to chuck food packaging out of the window. Is that littering solely the fault of the person working a sh.t minimum-wage job or should we maybe be looking at the culpability of the companies who push their employees to work as much as possible, and the companies who'd rather greenwash their credentials through 'environmental' groups rather than produce biodegradable or reusable packaging?

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Re: Littering

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:13 am

Stephanie wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:03 am
Or... we could have more bins and actually collect the rubbish?

Seems as though that could help solve the issue.

Unless this was just an all purpose grumble thread, in which case, it's in the wrong part of the forum.
This

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Re: Littering

Post by Herainestold » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:24 am

It is a certain demographic and certain capitalistic practises. Fines for littering should n\be based on the people doing it and the companies producing it. ie. Macca's should be fined for each Ronald Mcdonald cup that has to be picked up.

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Re: Littering

Post by Millennie Al » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:25 am

tom p wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:33 pm
It's lovely to imagine that if only there were more bins, then litter louts wouldn't litter. It's purely a function of poor facility management. But that isn't even close to the case. Everyone must have seen empty bins with litter nearby.
There are three cases:
  1. People who will never litter regardless of effort required
  2. People who may or may not litter
  3. People who will litter regardless
If you want to have people you can feel superior to, you can always find someone in group 3. If you want to reduce littering, you need to focus on group 2. I'm sure that there must be many cases of people in that group who see that those who are paid to look after the rubbish are doing an inadequate job (overflowing or non-existent bins) and decide that if people paid to do it can't be bothered then they can't either. While it's true that there are places where it is impractical to have rubbish bins, there are also plenty places where it is practical but they are inadequate. And extra demand on days such as Bank Holidays is no excuse whatsoever. That is just a matter of caring enough to pay extra staff to collect on those days. Unexpected demand, and unexpected shortage of people to work due to a pandemic are valid excuses, but if you train people to expect inadequate service then when they see overflowing bins in the exceptional circumstances they will just assume it's caused by the usual apathy on the part of those orgainsing the disposal service.
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Re: Littering

Post by murmur » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:51 pm

Fly tipping, some family experiences...

Bro-in-Law does various works on buildings; he is fully licensed, registered for all the things he needs to be, which includes paying for waste disposal in North Tyneside. All these costs are factored into what he charges, thus he frequently charges more than many of his competitors, who are NOT playing by the rules and who do NOT use council tips.

Near us are a couple of tracks/roadlets off minor roads. Down these one can (indeed usually does) find all sorts of shite dumped, mostly pretty clearly from works on domestic, if not business, properties. This is reported to our local council, Northumberland, who usually do f.ck all about clearing it up (some things have been there for 3 years), which just encourages more dumping.

False economy, brought on by central government messing with funding...
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Re: Littering

Post by headshot » Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:32 am

Cleared a local playing field of five big bags of litter today. All of it bottles, cans and fast food containers.

At each end of the footpath that accesses the field there are council-managed litter bins. Both are regularly emptied and were empty when we stacked the five bags next to them.

Tell me again about those excuses for not taking rubbish home or putting it in a nearby bin. :roll:

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Re: Littering

Post by jimbob » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:54 am

https://www.facebook.com/groups/haweswa ... 150933601/
Last night a multi-partner team led by Cumbria Police and the Lake District National Park patrolled ‘problem sites’, including Haweswater, to tackle instances of group camping and littering.

We’re incredibly grateful for their efforts, and have been informed that multiple fines were issued to campers last night, who were also told to pack up and leave 👍

It’s worth noting that demographics of littering ‘culprits’ across the Lake District - and country -are varied, so please avoid posting comments that target and stereotype groups. Thank you folks 😊
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