Re: what the hell is wrong with JK Rowling?
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:11 pm
Oh bl..dy hell, I'm still not getting notifications even though I'm subscribed. What's going on? I'm getting them for other threads.
Open to critical enquiry
https://scrutable.science/
Saying "people who menstruate" isn't attacking biology.purplehaze wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:01 pmBuck Angel, transman. Pinned tweet.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:44 pmRowling's point wasn't about prisons or refuges, it was about language.
She was arguing against the use of inclusive language, either because she doesn't think transmen should be called men or because she doesn't think it's worth considering them in conversations about their health.
https://twitter.com/BuckAngel
Every time you attack biology you attack my transition. I was born female and transitioned using medical assistance to live fully “male” today. I am still biologically female and will forever be. It is transphobic to say biology doesnt exist.
Sex is biology. Say it as it is. Females have the capacity to menstruate. That's right. So it should be 'females who menstruate'.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:14 pmSaying "people who menstruate" isn't attacking biology.purplehaze wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:01 pmBuck Angel, transman. Pinned tweet.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:44 pmRowling's point wasn't about prisons or refuges, it was about language.
She was arguing against the use of inclusive language, either because she doesn't think transmen should be called men or because she doesn't think it's worth considering them in conversations about their health.
https://twitter.com/BuckAngel
Every time you attack biology you attack my transition. I was born female and transitioned using medical assistance to live fully “male” today. I am still biologically female and will forever be. It is transphobic to say biology doesnt exist.
purplehaze wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:23 pmThe prostate is a small gland in the pelvis, found only in men.
[/b]
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prostate-cancer/
Skene glands share some of the same properties as the male prostate, which is located between the bladder and the penis. For example, both the prostate and the Skene glands contain prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and PSA phosphatase (PSAP), which are enzymes that can indicate the health of the prostate in males.
The discovery that these glands have similarities has led to the use of the term “female prostate.”
So, in a sense, females do have prostates, and female prostate cancer is technically possible. It is, however, extremely rare.
Welcome, Piggy!
So, I think I would agree with this perspective if the article had been proposing to refer to women as "people who menstruate" - that would indeed be reductive, dehumanising and offensive. But that's pretty much the opposite of what happened in this case: the article was about making menstruation safer, including tackling the stigma you refer to, for everybody who does it, not all of whom are women.Piggy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:15 pmI'm female. Being referred to as a 'person who menstruates/menstruator' isn't inclusive to me. It's dehumanising. It reduces me to a bodily function that, for most of history, has been treated as unclean and like something females should be ashamed of. And it's so close to 'person who incubates/incubator' that it disturbs me. So much for feminism and being seen as more than a uterus.
But the article did refer to women as people who menstruate.Bird on a Fire wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:31 pmWelcome, Piggy!
So, I think I would agree with this perspective if the article had been proposing to refer to women as "people who menstruate" - that would indeed be reductive, dehumanising and offensive. But that's pretty much the opposite of what happened in this case: the article was about making menstruation safer, including tackling the stigma you refer to, for everybody who does it, not all of whom are women.Piggy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:15 pmI'm female. Being referred to as a 'person who menstruates/menstruator' isn't inclusive to me. It's dehumanising. It reduces me to a bodily function that, for most of history, has been treated as unclean and like something females should be ashamed of. And it's so close to 'person who incubates/incubator' that it disturbs me. So much for feminism and being seen as more than a uterus.
Skene glands are external, they surround the opening of urethra and the clitoris and help to cleanse the vulva. The prostate is internal.Gentleman Jim wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:27 pmpurplehaze wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:23 pmThe prostate is a small gland in the pelvis, found only in men.
[/b]
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prostate-cancer/
Not entirely true
Skene glands share some of the same properties as the male prostate, which is located between the bladder and the penis. For example, both the prostate and the Skene glands contain prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and PSA phosphatase (PSAP), which are enzymes that can indicate the health of the prostate in males.
The discovery that these glands have similarities has led to the use of the term “female prostate.”
So, in a sense, females do have prostates, and female prostate cancer is technically possible. It is, however, extremely rare.
So the transman Buck Angel is wrong?El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:49 pmNo, it included women within a wider group of people who menstruate, specifically in an article about menstruation and hygiene. Transmen are not women, they are men. And they menstruate.
I apologise if I inadvertently misgendered you. I thought you were referring to Rowling's suggestion of replacing "people who menstruate" with "women", but it sounds like we both agree that that would be wrong?Piggy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:50 pmI never said I'm a woman.
I said I'm female, which could be woman/ciswoman/transman/genderqueer/non-binary/etc. I have female body parts. And that is my female perspective, as a person with a female body. Reducing me to something my uterus does once per month (if I'm lucky) is exactly what happened in this case.
There are plenty of females who are fine with this, all across the gender identity spectrum. Equally, there are plenty of females across the gender identity spectrum who are not OK with this.
If this was an article about survivors of rape, offering services for survivors of rape regardless of gender, that wouldnt reduce all survivors of rape to that fact alone, nor would it be seen as a call for them to be called that as standard in all contexts. And had JK Rowling posted a sarcastic tweet about how they should be called women, it would be ignorant of the many men who are victims of rape.Piggy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:50 pmI never said I'm a woman.
I said I'm female, which could be woman/ciswoman/transman/genderqueer/non-binary/etc. I have female body parts. And that is my female perspective, as a person with a female body. Reducing me to something my uterus does once per month (if I'm lucky) is exactly what happened in this case.
There are plenty of females who are fine with this, all across the gender identity spectrum. Equally, there are plenty of females across the gender identity spectrum who are not OK with this.
No, he's right. You're the one saying he's wrong.purplehaze wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:57 pmSo the transman Buck Angel is wrong?El Pollo Diablo wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:49 pmNo, it included women within a wider group of people who menstruate, specifically in an article about menstruation and hygiene. Transmen are not women, they are men. And they menstruate.
purplehaze wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:55 pmSkene glands are external, they surround the opening of urethra and the clitoris and help to cleanse the vulva. The prostate is internal.Gentleman Jim wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:27 pmpurplehaze wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:23 pmThe prostate is a small gland in the pelvis, found only in men.
[/b]
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prostate-cancer/
Not entirely true
Skene glands share some of the same properties as the male prostate, which is located between the bladder and the penis. For example, both the prostate and the Skene glands contain prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and PSA phosphatase (PSAP), which are enzymes that can indicate the health of the prostate in males.
The discovery that these glands have similarities has led to the use of the term “female prostate.”
So, in a sense, females do have prostates, and female prostate cancer is technically possible. It is, however, extremely rare.
Perhaps you are confusing Skene glands with Bartholin glands that secrete mucus to lubricate the vagina and are homologous to bulbourethral glands in males.
The Skene's glands are homologous with the prostate gland in males, containing numerous microanatomical structures in common with the prostate gland, such as secretory cells.[2][3] Skene's glands are not, however, explicit prostate glands themselves
All gender identities matter!
Hi PiggyPiggy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:35 pmBeing more inclusive is good.
The language is a mess.
Just as I wouldn't actually make a collective reference to 'people who can rape' to include everyone with a penis, 'people who menstruate' is clumsy and it alienates a lot of those people being referred to. It is, to me, disturbingly close to 'people who incubate/incubator'.
I'll be straight with you here. I have a female body. As a child I would be referred to as a 'tomboy'. I don't really identify with any of the gender labels, but if I had to choose I'd be probably be genderqueer, but that still doesn't really feel right.
TW: Spoiler:
I'm more comfortable around men than women (no real idea why). I personally am fine with shared spaces, but I have female friends who are deeply uncomfortable with them for numerous reasons (escape from domestic violence being a major factor for one of them). I also have a transwoman family member and genderqueer friends. I want everyone to feel safe and welcome and it honestly feels impossible.
I don't know what the answer is.
I didn't say it was a good thing, just drawing a comparison.
But that is the pertinent category. They are talking about the needs of people who menstruate regarding menstruation, ie cis women, nonbinary people and trans men who menstruate. Cis women, nonbinary people and trans men who don't menstruate aren't the focus of the article, which is why the term is reasonablePiggy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:15 pmFirst post, been registered here a little while, used to be a member of bad science forum (years ago and can't even remember the name I used) and continued lurking occasionally since then. Hello.
I'm female. Being referred to as a 'person who menstruates/menstruator' isn't inclusive to me. It's dehumanising. It reduces me to a bodily function that, for most of history, has been treated as unclean and like something females should be ashamed of. And it's so close to 'person who incubates/incubator' that it disturbs me. So much for feminism and being seen as more than a uterus.
An equivalent would be "people with prostate glands" in a discussion of who is at risk of getting prostate cancer.What are we to refer to male individuals in order to be inclusive?
Ejaculators? But females can experience a type of ejaculation.
Sperm producers? But we're not calling females 'egg producers'.
I don't know where your misogyny comes from - that's a matter for you and your mirror during a long, hard look - but using the excuse that women in prison are already getting sexually assaulted anyway is yet another low point.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:13 amThis paragraph can only make sense to someone who puts radically different values on the wellbeing of cis and trans women.lpm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:05 pmThey've made us look like idiots saying things like people who menstruate, they've made us look like lunatics saying rapists must always be moved to women's prisons and they've made us look cruel for insisting physical males can work in women-only places like rape centres. Is this really the way to win friends and influence people?
Where do you think female sex offenders get sent? Where do you think men who sexually assault men get sent? I knew a lad back in school who ended up working as a prison officer, on a women's wing. Preventing sexual assault was one of the toughest parts of the job. Only cis women there. And we know that trans women do atrociously in mens prisons. Prisons already have to deal with the presence of people who have sexually assaulted people of the same gender as the rest of the inmates, this wouldn't change a damn thing.
And trans people can already be excluded from single sex spaces under the 2004 act if it is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate end. Making GRCs easier to get won't change that. The example given in the act is group counselling for female victims of sexual assault. Of course, if we're talking centres as a whole, rather than individual counselling sessions, you easily run into a problem where, in order to protect cis women from having someone in the same damn building with different genitals, you block trans women from having any access to support. That would only be an acceptable tradeoff to someone who places rather different values on the wellbeing of cis and trans women.
This is a ridiculous accusation and you should be ashamed. The point I am making is that prisons already have structures in place to deal with sexual violence. It is not misogynist to note this, nor to note that cis female sex offenders against women go to female prisons, and cis male sex offenders against men go to male prisons.lpm wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:16 pmI don't know where your misogyny comes from - that's a matter for you and your mirror during a long, hard look - but using the excuse that women in prison are already getting sexually assaulted anyway is yet another low point.EACLucifer wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:13 amThis paragraph can only make sense to someone who puts radically different values on the wellbeing of cis and trans women.lpm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:05 pmThey've made us look like idiots saying things like people who menstruate, they've made us look like lunatics saying rapists must always be moved to women's prisons and they've made us look cruel for insisting physical males can work in women-only places like rape centres. Is this really the way to win friends and influence people?
Where do you think female sex offenders get sent? Where do you think men who sexually assault men get sent? I knew a lad back in school who ended up working as a prison officer, on a women's wing. Preventing sexual assault was one of the toughest parts of the job. Only cis women there. And we know that trans women do atrociously in mens prisons. Prisons already have to deal with the presence of people who have sexually assaulted people of the same gender as the rest of the inmates, this wouldn't change a damn thing.
And trans people can already be excluded from single sex spaces under the 2004 act if it is a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate end. Making GRCs easier to get won't change that. The example given in the act is group counselling for female victims of sexual assault. Of course, if we're talking centres as a whole, rather than individual counselling sessions, you easily run into a problem where, in order to protect cis women from having someone in the same damn building with different genitals, you block trans women from having any access to support. That would only be an acceptable tradeoff to someone who places rather different values on the wellbeing of cis and trans women.