Edward Colston statue pulled down

Discussions about serious topics, for serious people
FlammableFlower
Snowbonk
Posts: 519
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:22 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:59 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:43 am
I rather like that. Nice example of public art.

Though I give it about a day before it gets attacked.
Yeah, I think it's a really good statue. I hope if it doesn't stay there then it gets its own plinth somewhere in the centre.

User avatar
nekomatic
Clardic Fug
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:04 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by nekomatic » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:11 am

The city council have removed it to their museum, inviting Quinn to collect or donate it (and also to contribute to the cost of removing it)

Arguably fair enough given they have said they want local people to decide on the replacement, and possibly to pre-empt it being attacked.

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by plodder » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:07 am

Art twitter is calling the sculptor out for appropriating black culture (he is white), opportunism, cynicism and publicity seeking.

I think they're just jealous cos it's got loads of column inches and will undoubtedly sell.

User avatar
Gfamily
Dorkwood
Posts: 1526
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:00 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Gfamily » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:47 am

plodder wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:07 am
Art twitter is calling the sculptor out for appropriating black culture (he is white), opportunism, cynicism and publicity seeking.

I think they're just jealous cos it's got loads of column inches and will undoubtedly sell.
Is this another instance where twitter is being used to promote division in the progressive ranks?
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

User avatar
lpm
Dorkwood
Posts: 1450
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:05 pm
Location: IMPEACH AND EXTERMINATE

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by lpm » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:14 am

There are tough, competitive, underpaid things to go in for, and sculpture is one of them. Opportunism and publicity seeking is required if you want to prosper. But you won't prosper, unless you are the lucky 1% of the 1%. You will end up teaching art to bored school kids.

You'd think we would all understand this. We grow up in a world of pop stars and can see for ourselves that musical talent is a pretty minor requirement - more important are looks, style, attitude, newsworthiness, ruthlessness, opportunity-seizing and niche-prising. So why don't people immediately recgonise that cynically appropriating the moment is a more valuable sculpting skill than doing stuff with a hammer and chisel?
I'll miss him after he's died in the pandemic

User avatar
Tessa K
Dorkwood
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 pm
Location: Closer than you'd like

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Tessa K » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:55 am

If the Council really wanted to save money they should have made him take it down.

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by plodder » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:50 pm

lpm wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:14 am
There are tough, competitive, underpaid things to go in for, and sculpture is one of them. Opportunism and publicity seeking is required if you want to prosper. But you won't prosper, unless you are the lucky 1% of the 1%. You will end up teaching art to bored school kids.

You'd think we would all understand this. We grow up in a world of pop stars and can see for ourselves that musical talent is a pretty minor requirement - more important are looks, style, attitude, newsworthiness, ruthlessness, opportunity-seizing and niche-prising. So why don't people immediately recgonise that cynically appropriating the moment is a more valuable sculpting skill than doing stuff with a hammer and chisel?
Lol, this is other artists being bitchy, like the modern artists cartoon in Private Eye

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 2063
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by dyqik » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:05 pm

The speed with which they took this statue makes a rather important point...

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by plodder » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:55 pm

That they don't want to talk about statues for a bit, because actually it's real life things that matter?

User avatar
Tessa K
Dorkwood
Posts: 1119
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:07 pm
Location: Closer than you'd like

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Tessa K » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:53 pm

plodder wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:55 pm
That they don't want to talk about statues for a bit, because actually it's real life things that matter?
That they don't want to risk it being vandalized or causing any violence.

User avatar
jimbob
Dorkwood
Posts: 1203
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:04 pm
Location: High Peak/Manchester

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by jimbob » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:43 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:47 am
plodder wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:07 am
Art twitter is calling the sculptor out for appropriating black culture (he is white), opportunism, cynicism and publicity seeking.

I think they're just jealous cos it's got loads of column inches and will undoubtedly sell.
Is this another instance where twitter is being used to promote division in the progressive ranks?
I came across an iffy account today.

A new account of an anti-lockdown tweeter with 1 follower
Their follower was ostensibly anti-Trump
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by plodder » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:42 am

Tessa K wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:53 pm
plodder wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:55 pm
That they don't want to talk about statues for a bit, because actually it's real life things that matter?
That they don't want to risk it being vandalized or causing any violence.
It's not that. It's the subversion of due process that they're worried about.

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 2063
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by dyqik » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:47 am

plodder wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:42 am
Tessa K wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:53 pm
plodder wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:55 pm
That they don't want to talk about statues for a bit, because actually it's real life things that matter?
That they don't want to risk it being vandalized or causing any violence.
It's not that. It's the subversion of due process that they're worried about.
They were so worried about due process that they didn't even get competing quotes for removing it, and so paid way over the odds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-engla ... l-53449749

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by plodder » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:18 am

I can understand why they didn’t want to spend four months procuring a crane and a contractor, and I can understand why they wanted to avoid opportunism and push people down the formal public consultation route.

User avatar
discovolante
Dorkwood
Posts: 1448
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by discovolante » Mon Jul 20, 2020 6:30 pm

plodder wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:18 am
I can understand why they didn’t want to spend four months procuring a crane and a contractor, and I can understand why they wanted to avoid opportunism and push people down the formal public consultation route.
Well it did take them several years to (not) remove the Colston statue down, maybe they were just learning from their mistakes.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 2063
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by dyqik » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:37 pm

plodder wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:18 am
I can understand why they didn’t want to spend four months procuring a crane and a contractor, and I can understand why they wanted to avoid opportunism and push people down the formal public consultation route.
Why would getting a few quotes take four months? We're not talking about a £100k plus open competitive bid that has to be published in the trade papers, just getting a price before you start from a couple of contractors.

User avatar
Bird on a Fire
Stummy Beige
Posts: 2986
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:05 pm
Location: nadir of brie

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Bird on a Fire » Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:50 pm

dyqik wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:37 pm
plodder wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:18 am
I can understand why they didn’t want to spend four months procuring a crane and a contractor, and I can understand why they wanted to avoid opportunism and push people down the formal public consultation route.
Why would getting a few quotes take four months? We're not talking about a £100k plus open competitive bid that has to be published in the trade papers, just getting a price before you start from a couple of contractors.
Local government procurement processes are not always optimally efficient.

A place I worked at even outsourced part of the procurement process to Capita, which went about as well as you might expect.

Four months is probably a bit of an exaggeration, though.
Born at 356.32 ppm CO2

User avatar
dyqik
After Pie
Posts: 2063
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:19 pm
Location: Masshole
Contact:

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by dyqik » Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:20 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:50 pm
dyqik wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:37 pm
plodder wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:18 am
I can understand why they didn’t want to spend four months procuring a crane and a contractor, and I can understand why they wanted to avoid opportunism and push people down the formal public consultation route.
Why would getting a few quotes take four months? We're not talking about a £100k plus open competitive bid that has to be published in the trade papers, just getting a price before you start from a couple of contractors.
Local government procurement processes are not always optimally efficient.

A place I worked at even outsourced part of the procurement process to Capita, which went about as well as you might expect.

Four months is probably a bit of an exaggeration, though.
I work in a US Federal government agency that has three separate processes for spending Federal, Trust and foreign donation dollars. Please tell me about your bureaucratic and overly long procurement processes.

I could still get this though purchasing in under a week, with three quotes.

User avatar
Martin_B
Snowbonk
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:20 pm
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Martin_B » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:39 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:50 pm
Local government procurement processes are not always optimally efficient.

A place I worked at even outsourced part of the procurement process to Capita, which went about as well as you might expect.

Four months is probably a bit of an exaggeration, though.
My cousin worked for Scottish Water a while ago. Their procedures for a leak from a water main were:
- A Scottish Water work group goes out to investigate the leak, digging up the road if required, and assesses the damage.
- They go back to the office and fill in a work scope which gets sent to local companies to bid for.
- They wait a few days until all companies have either bid or confirmed they are not bidding. (Note, road still has hole in!)
- Successful bidder notified and they do the repair work.
- Scottish water come along and make site good (eg, fill in hole in road).

It struck her that in this Scottish Water were employed both as road diggers (no idea why that wasn't sub-contracted out!) and damage assessors, but not as actual repairers, so she organised business credit cards for each work crew and the procedures became:
- A Scottish Water work group goes out to investigate the leak, digging up the road if required, and assesses the damage.
- Senior man in work crew (with credit card) goes to B&Q or other hardware store and buys what they need.
- Come back to site, fix, make good and off to next job.

She said that there was talk of her getting chastised for changing procedures and potentially exposing the company to corruption charges by giving purchasing powers to non-authorised people, until they worked out how much money they were saving.
"Don't tell me that the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon"

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by plodder » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:31 am

Agreed. For little jobs just do them yourself or direct award, especially if you're in a hurry.

User avatar
discovolante
Dorkwood
Posts: 1448
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by discovolante » Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:03 am

Martin_B wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:39 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:50 pm
Local government procurement processes are not always optimally efficient.

A place I worked at even outsourced part of the procurement process to Capita, which went about as well as you might expect.

Four months is probably a bit of an exaggeration, though.
My cousin worked for Scottish Water a while ago. Their procedures for a leak from a water main were:
- A Scottish Water work group goes out to investigate the leak, digging up the road if required, and assesses the damage.
- They go back to the office and fill in a work scope which gets sent to local companies to bid for.
- They wait a few days until all companies have either bid or confirmed they are not bidding. (Note, road still has hole in!)
- Successful bidder notified and they do the repair work.
- Scottish water come along and make site good (eg, fill in hole in road).

It struck her that in this Scottish Water were employed both as road diggers (no idea why that wasn't sub-contracted out!) and damage assessors, but not as actual repairers, so she organised business credit cards for each work crew and the procedures became:
- A Scottish Water work group goes out to investigate the leak, digging up the road if required, and assesses the damage.
- Senior man in work crew (with credit card) goes to B&Q or other hardware store and buys what they need.
- Come back to site, fix, make good and off to next job.

She said that there was talk of her getting chastised for changing procedures and potentially exposing the company to corruption charges by giving purchasing powers to non-authorised people, until they worked out how much money they were saving.
Useless anecdote alert: a couple of weeks ago Scottish Water turned up outside my house, dug around a bit around the pipe, turned the water off for an hour or two, turned it back on and left. Then that evening a contractor turned up and put up cones and temporary traffic lights in prep for work. The next day SW came back with a contractor and did the work (turned my water off again without telling me, grr!). However I went out to speak to them (to find out how long the water would be off) and from what they said it sounded like the work might have been pretty urgent, so I'm not sure this is useful info.
don't get any big ideas, they're not gonna happen

Lew Dolby
Clardic Fug
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:59 pm
Location: Shropshire - Welsh Borders

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Lew Dolby » Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:04 am

plodder wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:31 am
Agreed. For little jobs just do them yourself or direct award, especially if you're in a hurry.
and, for FSM's sake, don't outsource bits of your core business. And supplying water would be part of Scottish Water's , wouldn't it.

plodder
Catbabel
Posts: 790
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by plodder » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:44 pm

It's terrifying how little understanding there is of how the world actually works. Only the very simplest jobs are done "in house" - standing around, looking at holes or things that how blown up, that level of simple. Everything else is contracted out.

Post Reply