Edward Colston statue pulled down

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dyqik
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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by dyqik » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:22 pm

Little waster wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:07 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:58 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:14 pm
The "erasing history" argument is particularly misguided. We remember history through books, not statues. It's not like Germany should be forced to erect statues of prominent Nazis to help remember that chapter of history.

He should be replaced with a slavery memorial IMHO.
I wonder how many of the people who say it's erasing history could actually have named who the statue was of if shown it?
There is a certain irony that as a non-Brizzlian I didn’t have a clue who Colston was UNTIL his statue was pulled down. It is only the act of destruction itself which has brought him and his role in the slave trade to my attention.

If it had been left where it was I could have spent the rest of my life not knowing he was a massive c.nt.

So it is the very opposite of “erasing history”.
Ditto.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by jimbob » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:27 pm

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Also what Little Waster and Dyqik said
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Fishnut » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:33 pm

Little waster wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:07 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:58 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:14 pm
The "erasing history" argument is particularly misguided. We remember history through books, not statues. It's not like Germany should be forced to erect statues of prominent Nazis to help remember that chapter of history.

He should be replaced with a slavery memorial IMHO.
I wonder how many of the people who say it's erasing history could actually have named who the statue was of if shown it?
There is a certain irony that as a non-Brizzlian I didn’t have a clue who Colston was UNTIL his statue was pulled down. It is only the act of destruction itself which has brought him and his role in the slave trade to my attention.

If it had been left where it was I could have spent the rest of my life not knowing he was a massive c.nt.

So it is the very opposite of “erasing history”. [my bold]
It's not just non-Bristolians who are learning about Colston for the first time. It's a name to many, nothing more.

I've also realised that having statues of people seems to make discussions of their lives harder, not easier. Because, as many have pointed out, statues are for adoration, not for reminding us of history, if there's a statue of someone then it seems that by definition it must be because they were good so anyone saying they weren't must be sh.t-stirring and can safely be ignored.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Little waster » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:45 am

Residents of Ashbourne hide the bust of a black man before the council could take it away
Thomas Donnelly, a local Conservative councillor, said: “It’s the people of Ashbourne who should decide, not Germany or France or the Netherlands.” He said the bust was not offensive because “it’s not black anyway, it’s Turkish.”
There is quite a lot going on in that statement. :shock:

Thomas Donnelly incidentally holds two gold Olympic Gold medals; one for shoe-horning and one for point-missing.
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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Little waster » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:56 am

Followed by:-
Renshaw said there was nothing offensive about the bust. “It could be any colour,” he said. “It’s nothing to do with racism. It’s a fertility thing.”
Renshaw then proceeded to take down the black head from above the giant sign proclaiming "The Black’s Head", pledging to give the head a "lick of black paint" before returning it to its rightful place.

So as you can see it could be ANY colour.
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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Tessa K » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:40 am

Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:33 pm

I've also realised that having statues of people seems to make discussions of their lives harder, not easier. Because, as many have pointed out, statues are for adoration, not for reminding us of history, if there's a statue of someone then it seems that by definition it must be because they were good so anyone saying they weren't must be sh.t-stirring and can safely be ignored.
'it must be because they were good' - or royal or Roman/Greek or religious. Or they're Art.

There's another statue of Churchill inside Parliament in the Members' Lobby. It's pretty ugly.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by tom p » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:47 am

Tessa K wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:40 am
Fishnut wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:33 pm

I've also realised that having statues of people seems to make discussions of their lives harder, not easier. Because, as many have pointed out, statues are for adoration, not for reminding us of history, if there's a statue of someone then it seems that by definition it must be because they were good so anyone saying they weren't must be sh.t-stirring and can safely be ignored.
'it must be because they were good' - or royal or Roman/Greek or religious. Or they're Art.

There's another statue of Churchill inside Parliament in the Members' Lobby. It's pretty ugly.

Image
To be fair, so was Churchill

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by JQH » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:02 am

Little waster wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:07 pm
Tessa K wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:58 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:14 pm
The "erasing history" argument is particularly misguided. We remember history through books, not statues. It's not like Germany should be forced to erect statues of prominent Nazis to help remember that chapter of history.

He should be replaced with a slavery memorial IMHO.
I wonder how many of the people who say it's erasing history could actually have named who the statue was of if shown it?
There is a certain irony that as a non-Brizzlian I didn’t have a clue who Colston was UNTIL his statue was pulled down. It is only the act of destruction itself which has brought him and his role in the slave trade to my attention.

If it had been left where it was I could have spent the rest of my life not knowing he was a massive c.nt.

So it is the very opposite of “erasing history”.
Indeed. In fact one could argue that the people who erected the statue in the first place without mentioning he was a human-trafficker were the ones erasing history.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by JQH » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:07 am

Little waster wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:56 am
Followed by:-
Renshaw said there was nothing offensive about the bust. “It could be any colour,” he said. “It’s nothing to do with racism. It’s a fertility thing.”
Renshaw then proceeded to take down the black head from above the giant sign proclaiming "The Black’s Head", pledging to give the head a "lick of black paint" before returning it to its rightful place.

So as you can see it could be ANY colour.
In the Henry Ford sense it is indeed any colour.
And remember that if you botch the exit, the carnival of reaction may be coming to a town near you.

Fintan O'Toole

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Tessa K » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:18 am

This is what Bristolians are up against. No wonder the statue was still there.
A councillor in Bristol has described 17th century slave trader Edward Colston as a ‘hero’ to the city, labelling those who pulled his statue down a ‘criminal mob’. According to the Bristol Live website, Conservative Richard Eddy, who represents the ward of Bishopsworth on Bristol City Council, condemned the toppling of the controversial statue ... In 2001, Mr Eddy resigned as deputy leader of the council’s conservative group after adopting a golliwog as a mascot and facing criticism from racial equality groups and his own party.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/09/edward-c ... op.twitter

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by FlammableFlower » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:51 am

Little waster wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:45 am
Residents of Ashbourne hide the bust of a black man before the council could take it away
Thomas Donnelly, a local Conservative councillor, said: “It’s the people of Ashbourne who should decide, not Germany or France or the Netherlands.” He said the bust was not offensive because “it’s not black anyway, it’s Turkish.”
There is quite a lot going on in that statement. :shock:

Thomas Donnelly incidentally holds two gold Olympic Gold medals; one for shoe-horning and one for point-missing.
Are you sure he wasn't beaten in the point-missing competition by this conservative councillor?
Linda Symes, a Portsmouth councillor, has been suspended from the party after appearing to question why there were demonstrations over the death of Floyd and yet not over the murder of Lee Rigby or the death of seven-year-old Emily Jones.

She shared a post which read: “Total morons, don’t remember any demonstrations like this when Lee Rigby was murdered on our streets by BLACK people.”
In terms of within Bristol - what with there being quite a few things named after him (a school, a concert hall and a tower block for starters) - most Bristolians know of him, but I suspect not all the aspect of him making the fortune, that he then lavished on parts of Bristol, from slave-trading. There's the not untiny thing of managing to completely fail to see this from someone else's viewpoint. Yes, it was all in the past - but for a large number of people, who coincidentally aren't white, then his actions generally fed into the situation that they find themselves in - and that is not remotely on an equal footing to those who are white. As such, it'd be much better if they didn't have a whacking great reminder of that smack in the middle of the city centre. But then you come to the likes of Richard Eddy, who is a racist tw.t.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by jimbob » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:57 am

Tessa K wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:18 am
This is what Bristolians are up against. No wonder the statue was still there.
A councillor in Bristol has described 17th century slave trader Edward Colston as a ‘hero’ to the city, labelling those who pulled his statue down a ‘criminal mob’. According to the Bristol Live website, Conservative Richard Eddy, who represents the ward of Bishopsworth on Bristol City Council, condemned the toppling of the controversial statue ... In 2001, Mr Eddy resigned as deputy leader of the council’s conservative group after adopting a golliwog as a mascot and facing criticism from racial equality groups and his own party.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/09/edward-c ... op.twitter
This is the same person who had objected to a new plaque explaining Colston's involvement in the slave trade, and who said that vandalism against such a plaque would be justified.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Little waster » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:43 pm

FlammableFlower wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:51 am

Are you sure he wasn't beaten in the point-missing competition by this conservative councillor?
Linda Symes, a Portsmouth councillor, has been suspended from the party after appearing to question why there were demonstrations over the death of Floyd and yet not over the murder of Lee Rigby or the death of seven-year-old Emily Jones.

She shared a post which read: “Total morons, don’t remember any demonstrations like this when Lee Rigby was murdered on our streets by BLACK people.”
.
Speaking to Portsmouth’s The News before her suspension, Symes insisted she was not racist. “In sharing posts on my private Facebook page, I was highlighting that there have been brutal killings of children and adults in the UK, but people didn’t protest and riot about that,” she said.
Of course she isn't racist. I assume it just a complete coincidence the two examples she happened to pick were of two black men and a Muslim woman killing white people.

I don't seem to recall 4 days of humming and haaing over whether Rigby's killer would even face disciplinary action nevermind murder charges, nor prominent politicians lining up to defend Skana as having done nothing wrong.
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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by AMS » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:50 pm

Interesting suggestion from Banksy on what to do with the Colston statue - to incorporate it in a new larger sculpture, along with statues of the protestors, commemorating the moment it was pulled down.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Tessa K » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:56 pm

Bristol's mayor comments:
The mayor of Bristol is to ask historians and academics to produce a detailed study of all the local memorials and places linked to the slave trade to inform a citywide conversation on their future.

Marvin Rees said the statue of the slave trader Edward Colston would be retrieved from the harbour, where it was dumped by anti-racism campaigners on Sunday, but no decision about its long-term future had been made.

Rees said he wanted to start a calm discussion about what to do about the statue, the plinth where it stood and the other memorials and places in Bristol with links to slavery.... He criticised the UK government’s strong criticism of the protesters who hauled down the statue. Rees said: “Bombastic statements from the touchline don’t help. They don’t know what’s going on in Bristol, they don’t know what’s happening on the ground, they don’t know the culture of this city. How can they think they can speak with any wisdom or insight?”
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ue-slavery

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Grumble » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:35 pm

AMS wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:50 pm
Interesting suggestion from Banksy on what to do with the Colston statue - to incorporate it in a new larger sculpture, along with statues of the protestors, commemorating the moment it was pulled down.
Richard Herring suggested the same thing. Has anyone seen them in a room together?
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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Fishnut » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:35 pm

Brilliant :D - no-one can work out who actually owned the statue and from what I can tell it may require the owner to request a prosecution, so no owner, no prosecution (and even if/when they do work it out there's no guarantee they'll want to - I can't imagine it would be a good idea from a PR standpoint.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Tessa K » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:54 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:35 pm
Brilliant :D - no-one can work out who actually owned the statue and from what I can tell it may require the owner to request a prosecution, so no owner, no prosecution (and even if/when they do work it out there's no guarantee they'll want to - I can't imagine it would be a good idea from a PR standpoint.
It's Grade II listed, which may make a difference. If it's the same as a listed building or a war memorial, then
A listed building may not be demolished, extended, or altered without special permission from the local planning authority
Also
Theft, arson and criminal damage may all be committed to a historic building or site. These 'everyday' offences may be the only or most appropriate means of bringing someone to justice for damaging England's heritage. The most important consideration in prosecuting and sentencing such crimes is the impact on our heritage which may be irreversible and cannot be equated to a financial cost. This can be brought to the courts attention through a heritage impact statement
https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/h ... ction1Text

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Fishnut » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:20 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:54 pm
Fishnut wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:35 pm
Brilliant :D - no-one can work out who actually owned the statue and from what I can tell it may require the owner to request a prosecution, so no owner, no prosecution (and even if/when they do work it out there's no guarantee they'll want to - I can't imagine it would be a good idea from a PR standpoint.
It's Grade II listed, which may make a difference. If it's the same as a listed building or a war memorial, then
A listed building may not be demolished, extended, or altered without special permission from the local planning authority
Also
Theft, arson and criminal damage may all be committed to a historic building or site. These 'everyday' offences may be the only or most appropriate means of bringing someone to justice for damaging England's heritage. The most important consideration in prosecuting and sentencing such crimes is the impact on our heritage which may be irreversible and cannot be equated to a financial cost. This can be brought to the courts attention through a heritage impact statement
https://historicengland.org.uk/advice/h ... ction1Text
I had seen something about listing means a prosecution may be required regardless of owner, which is a pain.

I found its listing, which happened in 1977, and it gives the following:
REASONS FOR DESIGNATION The statue of Edward Colston is designated at Grade II for the following principal reasons: * A handsome statue, erected in the late C19 to commemorate a late C17 figure; the resulting contrast of styles is handled with confidence * The statue is of particular historical interest, the subject being Edward Colston, Bristol's most famous philanthropist, now also noted for his involvement in the slave trade. * Group value with other Bristol memorials: a statue of Edmund Burke, the Cenotaph, and a drinking fountain commemorating the Industrial and Fine Art Exhibition of 1893.
ETA
The most important consideration in prosecuting and sentencing such crimes is the impact on our heritage which may be irreversible and cannot be equated to a financial cost.
One could, I think quite convincingly, argue that the impact on our heritage has been a positive act rather than a negative one, particularly if they do eventually fish it out and put it in a museum like people have been asking for years.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Herainestold » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:52 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:20 pm


One could, I think quite convincingly, argue that the impact on our heritage has been a positive act rather than a negative one, particularly if they do eventually fish it out and put it in a museum like people have been asking for years.
Yes. Whoever did it should be given a reward. Then take all the statues of white men, slavers or not, colonialists, imperialists, whatever and put them in a museum.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Fishnut » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:58 am

He's been pulled up and is now in a secure location before he goes into a museum. I suspect it will go in M Shed but I'm hoping that we eventually get a museum specifically on Bristol's involvement in the slave trade as it's clearly needed.

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Tessa K » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:40 am

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:58 am
He's been pulled up and is now in a secure location before he goes into a museum. I suspect it will go in M Shed but I'm hoping that we eventually get a museum specifically on Bristol's involvement in the slave trade as it's clearly needed.
The grafitti and ropes around him have been left on, which is interesting.

There is space in Bristol's museums to have a room devoted to the slave trade even if there isn't the money to build a separate museum.

Now the Baden Powell statue in Poole harbour has been removed. He was openly racist, homophobic and a supporter of Hitler. He was also accused of starving African people at Mafeking.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53004638

In 1939 Baden-Powell wrote in his diary: "Lay up all day. Read Mein Kampf. A wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ba ... al_beliefs

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Fishnut » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:01 pm

Some arse has gone for a bit of revenge. You take down my statue of a slave trader, I'll throw bleach on your statue of a Windrush-generation black playwright, poet and actor.
The St Paul’s poet and community activist Lawrence Hoo said: “Someone came and bleached him. Everything didn’t get made better a couple of days ago, and just to show that in this climate, someone still felt to come down and try and deface the one statue we’ve got from one person from the community of culture that had been recognised enough to be adorned on a plinth.”

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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Grumble » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:11 pm

Tessa K wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:40 am
Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:58 am
He's been pulled up and is now in a secure location before he goes into a museum. I suspect it will go in M Shed but I'm hoping that we eventually get a museum specifically on Bristol's involvement in the slave trade as it's clearly needed.
The grafitti and ropes around him have been left on, which is interesting.

There is space in Bristol's museums to have a room devoted to the slave trade even if there isn't the money to build a separate museum.

Now the Baden Powell statue in Poole harbour has been removed. He was openly racist, homophobic and a supporter of Hitler. He was also accused of starving African people at Mafeking.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53004638

In 1939 Baden-Powell wrote in his diary: "Lay up all day. Read Mein Kampf. A wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ba ... al_beliefs
I don’t think Baden-Powell’s statue has been removed, the article says it’s going to be but there are people objecting. Maybe there will be a calm debate about it, that would be nice.
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Re: Edward Colston statue pulled down

Post by Little waster » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm

Fishnut wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:01 pm
Some arse has gone for a bit of revenge. You take down my statue of a slave trader, I'll throw bleach on your statue of a Windrush-generation black playwright, poet and actor.
The St Paul’s poet and community activist Lawrence Hoo said: “Someone came and bleached him. Everything didn’t get made better a couple of days ago, and just to show that in this climate, someone still felt to come down and try and deface the one statue we’ve got from one person from the community of culture that had been recognised enough to be adorned on a plinth.”
But remember to repeat to yourself 100 times before you go to sleep tonight “There is nothing racist about opposing the removal of the Colston statue. There is nothing racist about opposing the removal of the Colston statue.”

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