Changing minds

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Stephanie
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Changing minds

Post by Stephanie » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:04 pm

I'm interested in how we think we change our minds when exposed to new information, and how we believe we change others.

There's a rich history here of people debunking, or calling out bollocks. How often does it work? Do we think debate serves a purpose?

I've read some different papers and bits and pieces, so I'm aware of what some of the evidence says. But I'm really fascinated to know what people here think. For instance, do we think that debating here with each other has any effect?
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Re: Changing minds

Post by bagpuss » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:26 pm

Good question. It's so varied from person to person and depends so much on what the subject is, how entrenched the idea is in people's heads, and also how the argument is presented, that I'm not sure it's possible to generalise.

Speaking personally, as you've asked for that, I can definitely say that my mind has been, perhaps not changed but enlightened, by arguments and discussions I've read here. I live in a very white middle-class place and come from a very white middle-class background. Most of my friends, in consequence, are white and middle-class. As a result, I haven't always heard many different points of view on certain subjects so my instinctive not-at-all-thought-through immediate reactions or thoughts on a subject are often perhaps biased or more often just missing important points. They're not at all entrenched ideas however and so are easily changed and I positively enjoy having my mind opened a bit and my thoughts challenged by the rather better informed people here. I'm sure that there are other areas where my mind is less easily changed, but those will be things I've thought about a lot more and, of course, I'm definitely right on those things ;)

In the other direction, I know that I made a few people think again during a work call on Friday. I joined the work social Zoom on Friday afternoon and as I joined, only a few people were already on and they were discussing the US demonstrations. Among the discussion, almost all of which lowered my opinion of those of my colleagues on the call, comments were made such as "black people *are* more likely to commit crimes than white people so of course the police have to approach them differently" and the old classic "all lives matter". They were being lazily repeated by people who'd read them and not bothered to engage brain before repeating them, so I thought I might make some impact by challenging them. Which I did, and got some genuine "oh, I hadn't thought of that" and "that's a good/fair point" in response. I hope, and do believe, that some of it sank in enough to at least stop them lazily repeating the same crap again.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by individualmember » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:13 pm

I’ve had the experiences of making up my mind through arguments and of bringing other people to a point of view through arguments online (not here or the predecessor to this place, but in other social media and in real life places). Now, I’m being careful not to say changed my mind or changed others minds. It only seems to happen when one (or more) of the arguers hasn’t already made up their mind about a subject, they’re arguing from repeating things they’ve read or heard and can be steered around it.

Once people have really made up their minds about something it’s (in my experience at least) impossible to argue them out of it. Which isn’t to say that minds can’t be changed, but they won’t be changed by confrontational arguing. I think it can sometimes be done by being tangential, persuade them to buy into a narrative that they will come to realise is incompatible with their other position. Even then it won’t be immediate, but I have seen someone take a different view in an argument to the one they previously held when the same subject comes up days or weeks later. I can only really say I’ve seen this a handful of times in the last decade or so, but that’s enough for me to think I’m on a useful track. The human mind loves stories far more than what we’d call evidence.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by discovolante » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:16 pm

Haha this is a tease if you have actual research!

I think it might be hard to tell on an individual level, because if you are in conflict with someone and either one of you changes your mind, you're probably not going to admit it immediately, out of pride. So it is probably a more gradual reflective thing. But that's just what I'd guess.

I imagine it's also going to depend on where the info comes from (perceived ingroup/outgroup), how it's presented, and whether it runs against any particularly fixed structural beliefs about how the world should operate.
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Re: Changing minds

Post by individualmember » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:27 pm

discovolante wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:16 pm
Haha this is a tease if you have actual research!

I think it might be hard to tell on an individual level, because if you are in conflict with someone and either one of you changes your mind, you're probably not going to admit it immediately, out of pride. So it is probably a more gradual reflective thing. But that's just what I'd guess.

I imagine it's also going to depend on where the info comes from (perceived ingroup/outgroup), how it's presented, and whether it runs against any particularly fixed structural beliefs about how the world should operate.
I agree with this. No one admits they’re wrong in the course of an argument. But they might show a different view the next time a subject comes up.

Also in-group versus out-group. I’ve noticed people accept things from me (a white male, a parent and some version of middle class) that they wouldn’t accept from a woman or a BAME person. (I can’t remember exactly when I shifted from resenting the assumptions people made about me to noticing that whatever those assumptions were I was usually benefitting from them, probably sometime in my late 30s I think).

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Martin Y » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:45 pm

I'd agree with the above: I think people probably do have their opinions shifted by arguments here, even if it takes time for them to mull it over and they don't have a road to Damascus thunderbolt moment.

But of course I might be wrong. I mean, I've had my opinion changed by stuff I've read here, so that might be about to happen again, which would be super-meta.

Srsly tho, although I struggle to think of concrete examples right now, I have had my view changed from time to time, usually in an "I hadn't thought of it from that person's p.o.v. before" way.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Opti » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:46 pm

This year I have consciously uncoupled from quite a few people on social media. That is all.
I tried, but not well enough, apparently.
Time for a big fat one.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by jimbob » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:53 pm

Martin Y wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:45 pm
I'd agree with the above: I think people probably do have their opinions shifted by arguments here, even if it takes time for them to mull it over and they don't have a road to Damascus thunderbolt moment.

But of course I might be wrong. I mean, I've had my opinion changed by stuff I've read here, so that might be about to happen again, which would be super-meta.

Srsly tho, although I struggle to think of concrete examples right now, I have had my view changed from time to time, usually in an "I hadn't thought of it from that person's p.o.v. before" way.
On social media, I am always thinking that it's the other people, who are *not* decided that I'm playing to as much as the others.

I don't mock (much). Here is good to get information and support and ideas - which was the point of my antivax talking points thread in Nerd Lab.
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Re: Changing minds

Post by Fishnut » Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:59 pm

individualmember wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:27 pm
No one admits they’re wrong in the course of an argument.
I keep thinking about this line. It's true, and I think it highlights the limits of argumentation. Arguments come, maybe not definitionally but in practice, with hostility. "I am right and you are wrong and I'm going to convince you why you're wrong". It's not creating an atmosphere where anyone is going to want to be the 'weaker' person and capitulate to a superior line of evidence or reasoning.

A lot of the sci-comms stuff I've seen says that empathy and understanding are key to getting people to listen to you. Arguments aren't a good way of engendering either emotion so maybe dialling down the arrogance and aggression (two things that social media seems to inspire unfortunately) would help to generate more constructive and productive dialogues.

I know for myself I've got quite comfortable at having my mind changed over the last few years. But I also know that it's easier for me to accept I'm wrong when I know that it's not going to result in someone gloating about how I was wrong, or having them use my prior ignorance as a way of belittling me.

I also think that all parties need to be open to changing their minds for anything constructive to happen. If you think you are completely right and nothing is going to change your mind why should anyone bother wasting their time talking to you? I remember reading a passage in Heretics: Adventures with the Enemies of Science by Will Storr that's stuck with me. I'm paraphrasing, but it's basically that we all have different views. Sometimes they align, often times they don't. The idea that out of a population of 7.5 billion I'm the only one to have got it all worked out correctly is the absolute height of arrogance. So chances are there's some things I'm wrong about and having discussions with people while having an open mind will hopefully lead to me getting a better ratio of right ideas to wrong ones.
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Re: Changing minds

Post by discovolante » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:40 pm

This is a bit of a digression sorry, but another aspect to this is, if you are the person looking to change someone's else's mind, what are you doing that for? Do we know that battling things out one or a few minds at a time is the way to go or should other methods be used? For example ,there is changing minds on an individual level e.g. another parent at the school gate who is unsure about vaccinating their kid, and there is trying to achieve more societal/population level shift. To pick something particularly topical, if you are trying to tackle racism, how much energy should be expended on people with racist views compared to supporting and standing with the people trying to overcome racial oppression? Is arguing with those people helping anyone in any way? I appreciate lots of people are aware of 'lost causes' but how widespread is this? There *might* be some instances where someone who is 'unsure' might be swayed if it is a public discussion but how likely is that to be the case and is that enough justification? Who benefits?

I guess a lot of the time it is very much going to depend on context and the topic of discussion, and persuasion is probably more relevant in the context of things like medical health, but I am not sure that quite so much effort needs to be expended on persuasion and argument as seems to be the case - but I might be behind the times on this or coming to inaccurate conclusions. And if it is worth discussing then there is probably already published research!
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Re: Changing minds

Post by jdc » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:23 am

discovolante wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:16 pm

I imagine it's also going to depend on where the info comes from (perceived ingroup/outgroup), how it's presented, and whether it runs against any particularly fixed structural beliefs about how the world should operate.
I reckon you've nailed it there.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Martin_B » Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:12 am

Are people talking about just changing the minds of friends and family or work things, too?

Maybe it's because I work in an engineering field, but we have to be flexible in our thinking should new data be brought forward and many meetings are about discovering the opinion of someone who's got to sign off on your idea and, if required, seeing if you can't bring them round to approving the proposal, on grounds of safety, schedule, financial, environmental, etc. People who aren't flexible in their thinking tend to get bad reputations and don't advance to positions where they have to make those decisions.

This does mean that I tend to be more flexible in my opinions outside of work, too. If new evidence comes to light, I'm happy to assess it and see if it's sufficient to change my mind.

For instance, I was leaning towards the exposure of the right-wing politician, but Plebian and Squeak's posts have got me to see the situation in a different light. By all means attack him for his stance of LGBTQI+ rights, or even his hypocrisy on only supporting Trump once he got elected, but using his (alleged) sexuality to attack him is not cool, and is sinking to the depths of the people you wish to remove from office.
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Re: Changing minds

Post by JQH » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:23 am

Martin_B wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:12 am
For instance, I was leaning towards the exposure of the right-wing politician, but Plebian and Squeak's posts have got me to see the situation in a different light. By all means attack him for his stance of LGBTQI+ rights, or even his hypocrisy on only supporting Trump once he got elected, but using his (alleged) sexuality to attack him is not cool, and is sinking to the depths of the people you wish to remove from office.
Likewise. But we are not emotionally invested in the exposure tactic so don't take it personally when they say "I think exposure is wrong because ... "
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Re: Changing minds

Post by Squeak » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:50 am

JQH wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:23 am
Martin_B wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:12 am
For instance, I was leaning towards the exposure of the right-wing politician, but Plebian and Squeak's posts have got me to see the situation in a different light. By all means attack him for his stance of LGBTQI+ rights, or even his hypocrisy on only supporting Trump once he got elected, but using his (alleged) sexuality to attack him is not cool, and is sinking to the depths of the people you wish to remove from office.
Likewise. But we are not emotionally invested in the exposure tactic so don't take it personally when they say "I think exposure is wrong because ... "
That's really lovely to hear.

It feels a bit odd to be analysing what I wrote but I wonder whether it's that plebian and I both (in very different styles/tones) appealed to values you already hold, rather than arguing against facts that others brought into the discussion.

I vaguely recall some sci comms research that suggests value-based arguments are more effective than fact-based arguments but I'm too lazy to hunt it down now.

I think most people here think of ourselves as pretty woke and onboard with letting people define themselves. We are also generally averse to homophobia and morally very worried about the impact of Republican politicians in the US.

So I think Plebs and I found a gap between two of the community's general values and we inserted ourselves there.

Maybe.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by bmforre » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:50 pm

Squeak wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:50 am
So I think Plebs and I found a gap between two of the community's general values and we inserted ourselves there.
You turned yourselves into moral wedges and pressed into the breach?

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Re: Changing minds

Post by jdc » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:53 pm

Can we start posting science now? I've got one or two bits on debunking myths. I also want to know what Stephanie's been hiding from us.

Spoiler:

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Millennie Al » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:35 am

Stephanie wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:04 pm
There's a rich history here of people debunking, or calling out bollocks. How often does it work? Do we think debate serves a purpose?
I think it mostly doesn't work, but does sometimes. In very rare cases someone who had a definite opinion can be persuaded to change to the opposite view by pure, short argument, but by rare I mean possibly as rare as once in a lifetime (though, obviously, people vary). Debate serves several purposes, some better than others.

Probably the most important is that it gives you a way to set out a position and see it's weaknesses. It's quite possible to change your mind, but exceptionally difficult to change someone else's. If you can't change your own mind, you have no chance of changing someone else's. You might plant a seed of doubt, with no visible effect, but meet someone again after a year and find they have changed their mind. You can never tell if you made a difference, though.

It also provides an opportunity for bystanders to learn the arguments for different sides and evaluate them for themselves. Even if they do not participate, they may find it useful.

It provides a way to refine arguments, finding out what is the bit that actually convinces people, so that it can be used again. This may mean realising that the logic should be framed as mocking or ridiculing - such as pointing out that homeopathic remedies have no active ingredient and making jokes about that. This is the sort of thing that bystanders might find memorable enough that when they in turn want to argue with someone they are instantly ready., which can be very useful as long arguments often result in people getting emotionally involved in a position, while a quick quip can be delivered in a way which makes the speaker sound iike they don't particularly care, lessening the confrontationality which encourages resistance.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Allo V Psycho » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:35 am

I know of a conference debate, where a strongly held traditional view was presented by three speakers, and an opposing 'new, controversial view also by three speakers. The traditional view informed how almost everyone in the audience currently performed their roles. A vote at the beginning of the debate was about 80%/20% in favour of the traditional view. At the end, it was about 50/50.
Evidence and examples were presented by both sides. I would rate all six speakers as highly competent communicators.
This was in an academic/research setting, however, which may not be what the OP was seeking to explore.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by PeteB » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:54 am

I just saw something in the Telegraph that made me think of this thread - in the interview with Norman Tebbit

"My contempt for these people who daubed the Cenotaph and tried to topple Churchill's statue is utter and complete. They are amongst the nastier creatures of life."

The bit in bold is total fantasy ? but not picked up by the Telegraph or any of the commentators - but their world view, reinforced by Johnson's tweets and speeches is that BLM equates to toppling Churchill's statues

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Martin Y » Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:02 am

That rather resonates with stuff I've spotted on social media about BLM (because it was liked by a kneejerk reactionary colleague whom I don't unfriend because he provides these insights into stuff I otherwise wouldn't see). The gist is right wing commentators warning that BLM are Marxists/anticapitalists/anarchists/whatever. While I don't actually follow any of the links so I don't see what The Terrible Truth is about BLM I get what the spin is.

For the vast majority of people BLM is a slogan, it's not an organization. But the right is not attacking the slogan or its anti-racism message directly, it's going for the organization in a reds-under-the-beds scare campaign to try to attack it that way.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Tessa K » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:09 pm

This place and its earlier version has been useful for me to get information. My mind hasn't necessarily been changed so much as my ideas refined and backed up with evidence although sometimes I've learned I got the wrong end of the stick about something. Perhaps because I'm not science trained I haev less problem admitting gaps in my knowledge or mistakes in science as that's not an admission of weakness in something that's part of my identity.

Being involved in Skeptics in the Pub has definitely expanded and reshaped my thinking in tandem with this place. In the early days a lot of SitP people also posted here and there was more crossover.

In its early incarnation there was quite a lot of mocking and 'I'm smarter than you' going on at SitP (it has to be said, nearly always by men as they were at least 90% of the audience) but as we developed and got a more diverse audience we moved more towards education. There was often robust debate in the Q&A but it was definitely less combative and smug. Also, we discouraged lengthy anecdotes and personal opinion in the Q&A by booing anyone who started rambling (harsh but fair) so that discouraged posturing too. I'm hoping we'll be back in business again at some point to carry on the work.

There's also a role for skeptics campaigning to make positive change (eg getting homeopathy NHS defunded) and exposing dangerous/bogus health claims - not just changing minds but changing more tangible things.

In my experience, battering someone with evidence does very little. If they don't understand how the evidence is constructed they're not going to accept it. Leading someone gently step by step towards considering an alternative works best, especially if they are emotionally or socially invested in their beliefs. Often the best you can hope for is reaching people who have not yet made up their minds or had to time to become invested in a belief.

Having said that, people do change their minds through exposure to reasoned thinking and evidence. I wouldn't be an atheist otherwise. And I have to confess I did dally with homeopathy and herbal medicine briefly in the early days before I discovered skepticism.
Last edited by Tessa K on Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Tessa K » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:10 pm

Sorry, double post

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Re: Changing minds

Post by Boustrophedon » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:29 am

There have been a few things that I have been mistaken about that I have been put right on by people on here, there are however some subjects that I will now no longer contribute to discussions on, because either I get upset or more often others get upset by me. Ho hum.
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Re: Changing minds

Post by Little waster » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:53 am

I used to think you can change peoples minds on something but after years of arguing about it I was persuaded you can't.








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Re: Changing minds

Post by Tessa K » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:35 am

If someone has just discovered a concept and hasn't had time for it to become embedded, then it can be possible to change their minds especially if they're the sort of person who can then show off to their mates that they are right.

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