Should we have statues at all?

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Gfamily
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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Gfamily » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:24 pm

"We will frighten on the beaches"
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
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egbert26
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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by egbert26 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:05 pm

I saw this and thought I'd stick it here.

I very much like it.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Fishnut » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:14 pm

This is an excellent piece. A few quotes,
The fact is that statues are teaching us very little about history. Most are accompanied by a brief plaque mentioning who the person was, their job title or major achievement, and who raised the statue.... Not only is this not teaching us history, it is in itself erasing history because it only tells us [one] side of the story, and a factually incorrect one at that. But having these memorials, and only these memorials, normalises this version of history, erasing alternative versions.
Rather than history, these statues are our archaeology. Archaeology is the study of human activity, beliefs, and values through material culture: that is, the objects that were created and used by humans. The value of statues is not in what they tell us about the individual being memorialised, but what they tell us of the society that created the statue, erected it, and perhaps altered, removed, or replaced it. These statues are therefore a story of us. Who we venerated and celebrated, what stories we told, and what values we upheld.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Fishnut » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:15 pm

egbert26 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:05 pm
I saw this and thought I'd stick it here.

I very much like it.
I love that!

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Gfamily
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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Gfamily » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:28 pm

egbert26 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:05 pm
I saw this and thought I'd stick it here.

I very much like it.
It's the opposite of a WWI war memorial we saw in France that named all the officers who had died defending some ridge or other. It was the "and the 584 men" that stuck out.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Matatouille » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:30 am

egbert26 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:05 pm
I saw this and thought I'd stick it here.

I very much like it.
I love that. If we're keeping on doing statues, I think every statue of someone who did the thing(s) that they were memorialised for through employing/directing/exploiting lots of people to do the actual work, should have their statue's plinth in this style.

Maybe there could be an opposite one, where someone did the thing that they were memorialised for despite great adversity pushing against them could have lots of hands from above trying to push them down, but the artistry would be making it clear that the pushing back is insufficient. Civil rights leaders' statues could have both the supporting masses of the movements raising them and the forces of the status quo trying to keep them down.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm

A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
THINK BIG AND UPEND THE SYSTEM

#ShowYourStripes

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by basementer » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:57 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Bookmarked.
Money is just a substitute for luck anyway. - Tom Siddell

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Gfamily
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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Gfamily » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:26 am

basementer wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:57 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Bookmarked.
"The jury will note that he had a bookmark that indicated an interest in the destruction of western culture" ;)
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Grumble » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:30 am

Maybe we could dig massive pits instead?
I know this is vitriol, no solution, spleen venting, but I feel better having screamed, don’t you?

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by basementer » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:50 am

Having found myself in a pit, I shall stop digging.
Money is just a substitute for luck anyway. - Tom Siddell

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Tessa K » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:55 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Yay science.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Fishnut » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:13 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
If people enjoyed that I highly recommend the twitter thread by Sarah Parcak who provides a,
PSA For ANYONE who might be interested in how to pull down an obelisk* safely from an Egyptologist who never ever in a million years thought this advice might come in handy

*might be masquerading as a racist monument I dunno

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Allo V Psycho » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:09 am

I'd quite like a statue of myself, indicating that I was F. Rude too.
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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by basementer » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:51 am

Allo V Psycho wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:09 am
I'd quite like a statue of myself, indicating that I was F. Rude too.

I think I've mentioned this memorial to Marie Corelli before. It's a bit F. Rude.
https://images.app.goo.gl/gioJSyhvs3Q6KiDR9
Money is just a substitute for luck anyway. - Tom Siddell

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Somewhat missing a key point - check who the statue is of before you paint on it or tear it down. For example, a statue raised by the subscription of black civil war veterans ought not be a target. Nor should a statue of the man who crushed both the Confederacy and the original incarnation of the KKK. Likewise, if the statue is of a migrant Free Soil activist and member of a Wide-Awake anti-slave catcher militia who died fighting against the Confederacy, you should not pull down the statue. Spanish writers who never even went to the new world and never owned slaves, but did spend time enslaved, are right out, too.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by bmforre » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:55 am

Allo V Psycho wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:09 am
I'd quite like a statue of myself, indicating that I was F. Rude too.
F. Rude: Napoleon wakening to glory

Perhaps F. Rude meant this to replace the oldfashioned Resurrection thinking?

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Martin Y » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:43 am

basementer wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:50 am
Having found myself in a pit, I shall stop digging.
I had idly wondered where your user name came from.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Herainestold » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:06 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Somewhat missing a key point - check who the statue is of before you paint on it or tear it down. For example, a statue raised by the subscription of black civil war veterans ought not be a target. Nor should a statue of the man who crushed both the Confederacy and the original incarnation of the KKK. Likewise, if the statue is of a migrant Free Soil activist and member of a Wide-Awake anti-slave catcher militia who died fighting against the Confederacy, you should not pull down the statue. Spanish writers who never even went to the new world and never owned slaves, but did spend time enslaved, are right out, too.
If it is a statue of an imperialist, a colonialist, a supporter of patriarchy, bring it down. The only question is whether it should be destroyed or preserved in a museum of fascism.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:51 pm

Herainestold wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:06 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Somewhat missing a key point - check who the statue is of before you paint on it or tear it down. For example, a statue raised by the subscription of black civil war veterans ought not be a target. Nor should a statue of the man who crushed both the Confederacy and the original incarnation of the KKK. Likewise, if the statue is of a migrant Free Soil activist and member of a Wide-Awake anti-slave catcher militia who died fighting against the Confederacy, you should not pull down the statue. Spanish writers who never even went to the new world and never owned slaves, but did spend time enslaved, are right out, too.
If it is a statue of an imperialist, a colonialist, a supporter of patriarchy, bring it down. The only question is whether it should be destroyed or preserved in a museum of fascism.
We can start with every monument to totalitarian rulers of China - both the current fascist crop, and every emperor, going all the way back to the Shang dynasty, right?

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by monkey » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:56 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Somewhat missing a key point - check who the statue is of before you paint on it or tear it down. For example, a statue raised by the subscription of black civil war veterans ought not be a target. Nor should a statue of the man who crushed both the Confederacy and the original incarnation of the KKK. Likewise, if the statue is of a migrant Free Soil activist and member of a Wide-Awake anti-slave catcher militia who died fighting against the Confederacy, you should not pull down the statue. Spanish writers who never even went to the new world and never owned slaves, but did spend time enslaved, are right out, too.
Are those real examples? I haven't read about those, have you got links?

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by Herainestold » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:01 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:51 pm
Herainestold wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:06 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 am


Somewhat missing a key point - check who the statue is of before you paint on it or tear it down. For example, a statue raised by the subscription of black civil war veterans ought not be a target. Nor should a statue of the man who crushed both the Confederacy and the original incarnation of the KKK. Likewise, if the statue is of a migrant Free Soil activist and member of a Wide-Awake anti-slave catcher militia who died fighting against the Confederacy, you should not pull down the statue. Spanish writers who never even went to the new world and never owned slaves, but did spend time enslaved, are right out, too.
If it is a statue of an imperialist, a colonialist, a supporter of patriarchy, bring it down. The only question is whether it should be destroyed or preserved in a museum of fascism.
We can start with every monument to totalitarian rulers of China - both the current fascist crop, and every emperor, going all the way back to the Shang dynasty, right?
That is up to the Chinese. We should deal with our own sh.t.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by EACLucifer » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:46 pm

monkey wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:56 pm
EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:52 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
A useful article in Popular Mechanics on how to safely but effectively remove racist statues.
Somewhat missing a key point - check who the statue is of before you paint on it or tear it down. For example, a statue raised by the subscription of black civil war veterans ought not be a target. Nor should a statue of the man who crushed both the Confederacy and the original incarnation of the KKK. Likewise, if the statue is of a migrant Free Soil activist and member of a Wide-Awake anti-slave catcher militia who died fighting against the Confederacy, you should not pull down the statue. Spanish writers who never even went to the new world and never owned slaves, but did spend time enslaved, are right out, too.
Are those real examples? I haven't read about those, have you got links?
Sadly yes. The Rober Gould Shaw Memorial was just graffitied, not torn down, but it depicts Colonel Shaw and members of 54th Massachussets Volunteer Infantry, one of the first African American infantry units. Shaw was killed during the storming of Fort Wagner in 1863, and fundraising for the statue was lead by veterans of the 54th. It's regarded as one of the first monuments to recognise the heroism of African American soldiers.

Ulysses Grant's statue was pulled down. He commanded the Overland Campaign that ultimately smashed the Confederacy, personally taking the surrender of Robert E Lee's army. As president, he suppressed the original incarnation of the KKK. Though his history isn't totally straightforward, anyone in doubt about his overall legacy on this should check out Frederick Douglass's opinion of him.

The Free Soil activist was Hans Christian Heg. His statue was torn down last night. He was a committed abolitionist activist, in deed as well as word, including sheltering a fugitive abolitionist and leading Wisconsin's Wide-Awakes. When the civil war broke out, he used his standing in the Norwegian immigrant community to raise a regiment of Norwegian migrants, with a few Danes and Swedes in it too. As a colonel, his service was exemplary, and he was in line for promotion to general when he died at Chickamauga, fighting against the Confederacy.

Miguel de Cervantes is most noted for writing Don Quixote. He also wrote some plays and poems, fought at Lepanto, and survived five years of slavery after he was captured by Ottoman pirates. No idea why, but his statue in San Francisco was torn down.

That should be enough detail to search for more information if you want. Also, not in the original post, but Matthias Baldwin - another noted supporter of abolition and philanthropist to the African American community - was also targeted with graffiti.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by monkey » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:59 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:46 pm
Sadly yes. The Rober Gould Shaw Memorial was just graffitied, not torn down, but it depicts Colonel Shaw and members of 54th Massachussets Volunteer Infantry, one of the first African American infantry units. Shaw was killed during the storming of Fort Wagner in 1863, and fundraising for the statue was lead by veterans of the 54th. It's regarded as one of the first monuments to recognise the heroism of African American soldiers.

Ulysses Grant's statue was pulled down. He commanded the Overland Campaign that ultimately smashed the Confederacy, personally taking the surrender of Robert E Lee's army. As president, he suppressed the original incarnation of the KKK. Though his history isn't totally straightforward, anyone in doubt about his overall legacy on this should check out Frederick Douglass's opinion of him.

The Free Soil activist was Hans Christian Heg. His statue was torn down last night. He was a committed abolitionist activist, in deed as well as word, including sheltering a fugitive abolitionist and leading Wisconsin's Wide-Awakes. When the civil war broke out, he used his standing in the Norwegian immigrant community to raise a regiment of Norwegian migrants, with a few Danes and Swedes in it too. As a colonel, his service was exemplary, and he was in line for promotion to general when he died at Chickamauga, fighting against the Confederacy.

Miguel de Cervantes is most noted for writing Don Quixote. He also wrote some plays and poems, fought at Lepanto, and survived five years of slavery after he was captured by Ottoman pirates. No idea why, but his statue in San Francisco was torn down.

That should be enough detail to search for more information if you want. Also, not in the original post, but Matthias Baldwin - another noted supporter of abolition and philanthropist to the African American community - was also targeted with graffiti.
Ta. FInding news articles now. They're not being that helpful about the reasons why they were gafitti'd/torn down, just that they were. I agree they are not good statues to be targeted.

It does seem to be people not thinking enough (or perhaps too much and getting it wrong). For example, the Cervnates one is probably because him being Spanish at the time of expansion in the Americas is a symbol of that. I could only find articles saying his statue was graffiti'd, not torn down, but others were at the time, including Junipero Serra who definitely played a role in colonisation. A few of your examples seem to be less targeted than you suggest though, the Robert Gould Shaw Memorial was one of 16 statue type things vandalised in one night. I think that's indicative of general indiscriminate vandalism, not a thought out action. Some graffiti that I saw on that one would also suggest that, just writing "f.ck" and "ACAB" doesn't indicate much thought beyond it being an expression of anger and finding a flat surface to put it on. But still, not enough thinking.

Thankfully, as far as I can tell these instances aren't representative of of the whole. I suppose any movement which has many people associating themselves with it will have some who do it wrong. It a numbers thing.

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Re: Should we have statues at all?

Post by bmforre » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:16 pm

Pirate monument hides in plain sight
The invisibility of Drake’s Cross in a San Francisco park may make it the most fitting monument to white supremacy in the country.
Even though it is 18 meters tall.

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