US Election

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Bird on a Fire
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Re: US Election

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:42 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:23 am
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:14 pm
Bit of an exaggeration there, EPD. I think the truth is probably somewhere between your "they're all the same" position and LW's jokey hagiography (which is what I was responding to).
But then yours seemed a bit of an over-reaction to people essentially sighing and reminiscing about the time when the US President could string two sentences together and seemed to want the best for people. (LW's wasn't a jokey hagiography, it was ironic criticism). Nonetheless, people should be able to contrast Obama to Trump with fondness, without some dreary arse leaping down their necks because Obama did some not good stuff. It's no different from all the tw.ts on the far left of labour.
Well, I thought LW's post was mocking some of the criticisms made of Obama's image and public presentation, in a way that suggested there weren't any. I was just adding some actual criticisms, e.g. pretending to be about peace when he actually loved drones, pretending to be about family while deporting kids' parents, etc.

I guess I just disagree with the idea that "what's missing from the US presidency" is somebody who looks stylish and speaks nicely while also being a c.nt. Sorry if wanting a non-c.nt makes me dreary. I'll just cheer along with the rest of you at whoever my team puts forward, because heaven forfend we should strive for better.
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Re: US Election

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:03 am

There's the thing, though. I don't think calling Obama a c.nt is especially helpful, because then someone like Trump comes along and you've already used up all your hyperbole, and people stop listening. And then Hillary's emails are as bad as Trump being a racist and a sexual predator and a tax cheat and so on.

Note that drone strikes have massively increased under Trump, and the monitoring and accountability that Obama introduced regarding them has been done away with. That gets drowned out in the noise of all the ways Trump is a vile person, and Obama becomes the one who did the drone strikes.
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Re: US Election

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:07 am

That's probably fair, to be honest. To be honest, I think my frustration is more that, while the Prez does have a fair amount of power, at the end of the day they're just one representative of a really nasty (or c.nty) system, and that swapping the guy at the top doesn't fix things like white supremacy or capitalism. So Obama was seemingly a fairly nice dude, but he was in this role overseeing a whole bunch of objectionable stuff and had to choose which bits to tackle and which bits to be more laissez faire about. Trump is a naked manifestation of that system, whereas Obama came in promising HOPE and CHANGE and stuff but was ultimately still the system's tool.

I'm really finding it hard to view this election as much more than arranging deckchairs on the Titanic, but people act like you're not allowed to have an opinion on systemic/structural problems unless you also take an interest in electoral politics, so here I am, trying to get invested in whether the blue team or red team gets to pick the captain of overexploitation for the next four years.
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Re: US Election

Post by JQH » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:19 am

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:07 am

I'm really finding it hard to view this election as much more than arranging deckchairs on the Titanic, but people act like you're not allowed to have an opinion on systemic/structural problems unless you also take an interest in electoral politics, so here I am, trying to get invested in whether the blue team or red team gets to pick the captain of overexploitation for the next four years.
People are happy to discuss the systemic/structural problems provided the discussion doesn't head down the "they're both as bad as each other so why bother?" route. If you'd been there and had a choice would you have preferred von Papen or Hitler as Chancellor of 1930s Germany? The structural problems with the Weimar Republic existed either way but one man was much more evil than the other.
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Re: US Election

Post by Gfamily » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:28 am

The President is meant to be the servant of the people as well as their leader, and unfortunately, sometimes they have to make tough choices based on 'what the people want'.
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Re: US Election

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:54 am

Why are we having this discussion on the Election thread?

If you want to bash every American President ever, get your own thread.

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Re: US Election

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:00 pm

Gfamily wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:28 am
The President is meant to be the servant of the people as well as their leader, and unfortunately, sometimes they have to make tough choices based on 'what the people want'.
I think that's actually pretty much the opposite of what's happening at the moment - the people want a lot more, in all sorts of areas, than they are being offered by any candidate.

@others: Obviously they're not both as bad as each other, or equivalent, which is a pretty weird misreading of what I wrote. The obviously-better candidates are miles ahead in all the polls and will obviously win bar some freak event or outright fraud. So the thread might as well include discussion of the election's consequences, as well as w.nking over tiny shifts in poll numbers that are well within the margin of error.
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Re: US Election

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:27 pm

The chances of Trump winning per 538 area basically the same as the chances of losing at Russian Roulette, and with basically the same consequences for a large number of people. So, no, I will be concentrating on changes in those chances.

This is the thread for that.

If you want to discuss American presidents through history, or America's role in global politics, start a thread.

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Re: US Election

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:03 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:27 pm
The chances of Trump winning per 538 area basically the same as the chances of losing at Russian Roulette, and with basically the same consequences for a large number of people. So, no, I will be concentrating on changes in those chances.

This is the thread for that.
Cool. No issue with that. But the thread isn't exclusively for US Election Poll Numbers. I checked the first post and it's some bloke called dyqik who doesn't even mention polls.
dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:27 pm
If you want to discuss American presidents through history, or America's role in global politics, start a thread.
I'm not sure what you're so cheesed off about here. Obama is hardly a historical figure - he was president 4 years ago, Biden was his VP, and more relevantly he has weighed in on the current election, which is why FlammableFlower brought him up as "show[ing] you what's been missing from the US presidency". I was responding to that comment. We're all aware that Obama isn't a candidate in the current election, but the strengths and weaknesses of recent presidents are obviously an important part of the context of the current election. The US's role in global politics is also an important consideration, for a lot of US voters as well as for most of the people in this thread who simply live on the same planet as the US but can't vote there.

Finally, I think it's safe enough to be honest about our thoughts here as nothing we write is going to influence large numbers of undecided voters. We don't have to pretend to think that Biden or even Obama are particularly great, even though they're obviously better than Trump. The election will hopefully get rid of a nasty guy who's stopped progress being made in a lot of issues, and has enabled regression on quite a few fronts. But let's not pretend that getting rid of him solves any big problems in and of itself. For example, people were all sad and angry about ending structural racism a few months ago, which Obama - a Black guy! - didn't manage to do over two terms. Electing Biden isn't going to get the country much further forward on that front, though re-electing Trump would be backsliding. Maybe I'm just thinking too big-picture and long-term, I dunno.
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Re: US Election

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:10 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:03 pm
dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:27 pm
The chances of Trump winning per 538 area basically the same as the chances of losing at Russian Roulette, and with basically the same consequences for a large number of people. So, no, I will be concentrating on changes in those chances.

This is the thread for that.
Cool. No issue with that. But the thread isn't exclusively for US Election Poll Numbers. I checked the first post and it's some bloke called dyqik who doesn't even mention polls.
It's the US Election thread.

It says so in the thread title.

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Re: US Election

Post by Grumble » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm

I did quite like Obama’s going to the gym analogy for voting. Doing it once doesn’t make a big change.
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Re: US Election

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:18 pm

Grumble wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm
I did quite like Obama’s going to the gym analogy for voting. Doing it once doesn’t make a big change.
That is good. Of course, people can't actually vote several times a week, which is why making a big change requires more than just voting.
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Re: US Election

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:35 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:18 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm
I did quite like Obama’s going to the gym analogy for voting. Doing it once doesn’t make a big change.
That is good. Of course, people can't actually vote several times a week, which is why making a big change requires more than just voting.
Voting several times in a week wouldn't change anything, anyway. The votes would all go the same way, because change doesn't happen in a week, or even a year.

Voting several times over a decade will change things though. Along with holding politicians accountable in-between elections, building institutions, and changing voters minds, etc.

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Re: US Election

Post by Grumble » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:41 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:18 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm
I did quite like Obama’s going to the gym analogy for voting. Doing it once doesn’t make a big change.
That is good. Of course, people can't actually vote several times a week, which is why making a big change requires more than just voting.
Well clearly the timescales required are where the analogy does fall down a bit. But I see trump has decided to add to the analogy by taking steroids.
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Re: US Election

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:45 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:35 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:18 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm
I did quite like Obama’s going to the gym analogy for voting. Doing it once doesn’t make a big change.
That is good. Of course, people can't actually vote several times a week, which is why making a big change requires more than just voting.
Voting several times in a week wouldn't change anything, anyway. The votes would all go the same way, because change doesn't happen in a week, or even a year.

Voting several times over a decade will change things though. Along with holding politicians accountable in-between elections, building institutions, and changing voters minds, etc.
Yes, exactly. And at the moment, and not just in the US, I think we're in a place where hardly anybody even has the option of voting for things they really want (universal healthcare being an example that's relevant to the thread) so the stuff in your last sentence becomes even more important.
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Re: US Election

Post by Bird on a Fire » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:46 pm

Grumble wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:41 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:18 pm
Grumble wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm
I did quite like Obama’s going to the gym analogy for voting. Doing it once doesn’t make a big change.
That is good. Of course, people can't actually vote several times a week, which is why making a big change requires more than just voting.
Well clearly the timescales required are where the analogy does fall down a bit. But I see trump has decided to add to the analogy by taking steroids.
hahahaha
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Re: US Election

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:09 pm

Trump is worried about Texas.
The Attorney General has to act. He’s got to act, and he’s got to act fast, he’s got to appoint somebody, this is major corruption, and this has to be known about before the election, and by the way we’re doing very well, we’re gonna win the election, we’re doing very well, if you look at all of what’s happening and all of the people that come in and don’t come in, you take a look all around the country and with Texas early voting. Those are our votes and we were doing well in Texas. I mean, I just got to report we’re doing great in Texas, but we’re doing great all over, but forget that, this has to be done early. So the attorney general has to act.
I think if that goes Dem, it'll be the one which breaks him.
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Re: US Election

Post by dyqik » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:24 pm

Texas also has the fun of the Republican state AG firing whistleblowers who have released details of bribes and corruption in his office.

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Re: US Election

Post by Vertigowooyay » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 pm

dyqik wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:24 pm
Texas also has the fun of the Republican state AG firing whistleblowers who have released details of bribes and corruption in his office.
Does that fall under the same rule of 'Don't piss off the IT head at work, they have your search history details'?

Don Jnr has been on TV, whining out on his dad's performance, and now looking every inch like Ray Liotta as Henry Hill in the final 20 minutes of Goodfellas.

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Re: US Election

Post by Little waster » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:21 pm

Vertigowooyay wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:57 pm

Don Jnr has been on TV, whining out on his dad's performance, and now looking every inch like Ray Liotta as Henry Hill in the final 20 minutes of Goodfellas.
On a serious note, thoughts and prayers for all those dealing with substance abuse problems.
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Re: US Election

Post by Martin Y » Fri Oct 23, 2020 4:43 pm

I just got a departmental email on the subject of "US Election Rigging".

It's potentially a greater gift to the internet than mistakenly pre-reporting the collapse of WTC7 but, less excitingly, seems to be something about installing new cables and equipment in Studio B.

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Re: US Election

Post by EACLucifer » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:37 am

A day or two back, I saw people nitpicking that the Lincoln Project putting this in New York wasn't a good waste of resources, what with it being a safe state and all.

Image

However, the idiot scum depicted took the bait, hook line and sinker, threatening a meritless lawsuit, and thus drawing more attention to the billboards. The Lincoln Project's first response was simply "Nuts". Their second response is as follows;

Image

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Re: US Election

Post by Vertigowooyay » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:21 pm

Plus, surely the fact that the Lincoln Project can afford to take out massive billboards in possibly the most expensive advertising real estate in the US points to the fact their fundraising is hugely outstripping Republican PACs?
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Re: US Election

Post by headshot » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:48 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:37 am

However, the idiot scum depicted took the bait, hook line and sinker, threatening a meritless lawsuit, and thus drawing more attention to the billboards. The Lincoln Project's first response was simply "Nuts".format=jpg&name=large[/img]
Channeling General McAuliffe‘s response to the surrounding German forces at The Battle of the Bulge. That’s great. Telling Nazis to get f.cked in 2020.

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Re: US Election

Post by Little waster » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:17 pm

EACLucifer wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:37 am

Image
Oh, those are bodybags under Kushner...

... I thought they were dildos :oops:

That sort of made sense.
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