Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:33 am

Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:23 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:09 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:33 am
It was a retweet of an article including an antisemitic canard.
The antisemitic canard of accusing Israel of doing the kind of thing they do in fact do but may not have done specifically on this occasion? The antisemitic canard of using Israel as a reference point for brutal oppression of a minority carried out under the banner of democracy?
The anti-semitism canard of seeking to blame an issue with a US police force on Israel, for no apparent reason.
This isn't exactly what happened though. The relevant quote from the article is:
“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”
The wording, as it is reported to us, is clumsy, but I interpret it primarily as using Israel as a reference point for brutality against a segment of their own population. And it's a relevant reference because Israel is also a "Western Democracy". I mean, god forbid that someone should care enough about the treatment of Palestinians in Israel to want to bring it up in an interview talking about police brutality.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:36 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:09 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:33 am
It was a retweet of an article including an antisemitic canard.
The antisemitic canard of accusing Israel of doing the kind of thing they do in fact do but may not have done specifically on this occasion? The antisemitic canard of using Israel as a reference point for brutal oppression of a minority carried out under the banner of democracy?
The antisemitic canard of rushing to blame the world's only Jewish state for something done by non-Jews far away from Israel, yeah. There's been tiny amounts of cross training between US and Israeli police, and US police have also cross trained with a number of other countries police, and yet the article blames an unnamed "Israeli secret service", rather than, say, the French Gendarmerie.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:38 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:36 am
The antisemitic canard of rushing to blame the world's only Jewish state for something done by non-Jews far away from Israel, yeah. There's been tiny amounts of cross training between US and Israeli police, and US police have also cross trained with a number of other countries police, and yet the article blames an unnamed "Israeli secret service", rather than, say, the French Gendarmerie.
It's probably because Israel brutally oppresses a big part of its own population.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by EACLucifer » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:39 am

bagpuss wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:26 am
Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:23 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:09 am

The antisemitic canard of accusing Israel of doing the kind of thing they do in fact do but may not have done specifically on this occasion? The antisemitic canard of using Israel as a reference point for brutal oppression of a minority carried out under the banner of democracy?
The anti-semitism canard of seeking to blame an issue with a US police force on Israel, for no apparent reason.
Exactly. Even if the police did indeed learn the technique from Israel, the relevant point in this situation would not be that they learned it from Israel but that the US police felt the need to learn techniques from any police force known to use more violent and forceful techniques compared with many.

ETA: It's the difference between blaming Israel for giving the training vs blaming the US for seeking it.
This. Also, the amount of cross training between US police and Israeli ones is absolutely tiny. Facts matter, especially when dealing with racist dogwhistles, and the murder of George Floyd did not occur because of Israeli police, "secret service"*, or anything to do with the world's only majority Jewish state.

*I presume they mean Shin Bet, but with these kinds of conspiracies, reality seldom factors in much.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Grumble » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:52 am

Also, as discussed elsewhere on this forum, the US has about 3 million police forces, not 1.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that pretty much every police force globally employ fairly brutal restraining methods - they will need to use them on violent offenders. (It’s when they get used on non-violent people that the problems start.) Involving Israel in this is such absolute b.llsh.t.
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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by headshot » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:10 am


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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by jimbob » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:19 am

headshot wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:10 am
This is a good explanation:

https://twitter.com/sara_rose_g/status/ ... 25189?s=21
Thanks for that
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 am

Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:52 am
Also, as discussed elsewhere on this forum, the US has about 3 million police forces, not 1.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that pretty much every police force globally employ fairly brutal restraining methods - they will need to use them on violent offenders. (It’s when they get used on non-violent people that the problems start.) Involving Israel in this is such absolute b.llsh.t.
Except that Israel has, through its well document actions, become a benchmark for democratic countries brutally oppressing a segment of their own population. So while Peake is factually wrong to say the Israeli's taught the Minneapolis police to kneel on people's necks, it's certainly reasonable to bring them up in a conversation about brutality by security forces, which is essentially what happened. The idea that Peake means to imply that Israel is in some way causally responsible for George Floyd's death seems pretty far fetched to me, the fact that her off the cuff remarks could be interpreted in that way if you really wanted to notwithstanding.

As I said before, I can understand why Starmer has to act to avoid the wrath of disingenuous conservatives and idiots, but you don't have to be one of the idiots.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Fishnut » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:27 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:33 am
The relevant quote from the article is:
“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

The way I read this is that the tactics used by American police were not created in America but are a foreign import, specifically from the Israeli Secret Service. The implications of this appear to be that without these seminars America wouldn't have a problem with police violence. Which is ridiculous as police violence has existed as long as there have been US police forces.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Grumble » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:33 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 am
Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:52 am
Also, as discussed elsewhere on this forum, the US has about 3 million police forces, not 1.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that pretty much every police force globally employ fairly brutal restraining methods - they will need to use them on violent offenders. (It’s when they get used on non-violent people that the problems start.) Involving Israel in this is such absolute b.llsh.t.
Except that Israel has, through its well document actions, become a benchmark for democratic countries brutally oppressing a segment of their own population. So while Peake is factually wrong to say the Israeli's taught the Minneapolis police to kneel on people's necks, it's certainly reasonable to bring them up in a conversation about brutality by security forces, which is essentially what happened. The idea that Peake means to imply that Israel is in some way causally responsible for George Floyd's death seems pretty far fetched to me, the fact that her off the cuff remarks could be interpreted in that way if you really wanted to notwithstanding.

As I said before, I can understand why Starmer has to act to avoid the wrath of disingenuous conservatives and idiots, but you don't have to be one of the idiots.
American police have never needed lessons in how to brutally oppress a segment of their own population.
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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:34 am

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:27 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:33 am
The relevant quote from the article is:
“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

The way I read this is that the tactics used by American police were not created in America but are a foreign import, specifically from the Israeli Secret Service. The implications of this appear to be that without these seminars America wouldn't have a problem with police violence. Which is ridiculous as police violence has existed as long as there have been US police forces.
Well, as I said in my previous post, I doubt Peake intended that conclusion, because, as you say, it's obviously false. In addition, the Left recognizes America as a significant exporter of brutality around the world, so in my opinion it's unlikely Peake would have that view.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:35 am

Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:33 am
American police have never needed lessons in how to brutally oppress a segment of their own population.
I'm not saying they did, and I'm arguing that I sincerely doubt Peake intended to imply that either.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by headshot » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:37 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 am
Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:52 am
Also, as discussed elsewhere on this forum, the US has about 3 million police forces, not 1.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that pretty much every police force globally employ fairly brutal restraining methods - they will need to use them on violent offenders. (It’s when they get used on non-violent people that the problems start.) Involving Israel in this is such absolute b.llsh.t.
Except that Israel has, through its well document actions, become a benchmark for democratic countries brutally oppressing a segment of their own population. So while Peake is factually wrong to say the Israeli's taught the Minneapolis police to kneel on people's necks, it's certainly reasonable to bring them up in a conversation about brutality by security forces, which is essentially what happened. The idea that Peake means to imply that Israel is in some way causally responsible for George Floyd's death seems pretty far fetched to me, the fact that her off the cuff remarks could be interpreted in that way if you really wanted to notwithstanding.

As I said before, I can understand why Starmer has to act to avoid the wrath of disingenuous conservatives and idiots, but you don't have to be one of the idiots.
You appear to be spectacularly missing the point here.

There are hundreds of examples of security forces using brutality worldwide. Why did Peake feel the need to specifically mention Israel? Could it be that there’s some sort of ingrained bias she has?

Also, I fully support Starmer’s political decision to remove Long-Bailey because of all the reasons outlined in the Tweet I linked to.

The idiots here are Long-Bailey and those that can’t see the political fallout from her actions.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by FlammableFlower » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:40 am

Hey - I was about to post that!

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:40 am

headshot wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:37 am
You appear to be spectacularly missing the point here.

There are hundreds of examples of security forces using brutality worldwide. Why did Peake feel the need to specifically mention Israel? Could it be that there’s some sort of ingrained bias she has?

Also, I fully support Starmer’s political decision to remove Long-Bailey because of all the reasons outlined in the Tweet I linked to.

The idiots here are Long-Bailey and those that can’t see the political fallout from her actions.
Because Israel, by being the worst offender that is also a democracy, is a natural point of reference whenever the subject of brutal oppression of a segment of its own population by a democratic country comes up. This really isn't that hard. It's kind of like you're trying to not understand.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Fishnut » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:43 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:34 am
Fishnut wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:27 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:33 am
The relevant quote from the article is:

The way I read this is that the tactics used by American police were not created in America but are a foreign import, specifically from the Israeli Secret Service. The implications of this appear to be that without these seminars America wouldn't have a problem with police violence. Which is ridiculous as police violence has existed as long as there have been US police forces.
Well, as I said in my previous post, I doubt Peake intended that conclusion, because, as you say, it's obviously false. In addition, the Left recognizes America as a significant exporter of brutality around the world, so in my opinion it's unlikely Peake would have that view.
She literally said "The tactics used by the police in America... was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services". I get she's not a politician, she's an actress, but she's been in the public eye for a long time and is experienced at interviews. She knows the power of words and the importance of using the right ones. I don't know what other conclusion she's expecting people to draw that the one that says it's the Israeli Secret Service who are responsible for American police violence.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by El Pollo Diablo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:44 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:26 am
Grumble wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:52 am
Also, as discussed elsewhere on this forum, the US has about 3 million police forces, not 1.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that pretty much every police force globally employ fairly brutal restraining methods - they will need to use them on violent offenders. (It’s when they get used on non-violent people that the problems start.) Involving Israel in this is such absolute b.llsh.t.
Except that Israel has, through its well document actions, become a benchmark for democratic countries brutally oppressing a segment of their own population. So while Peake is factually wrong to say the Israeli's taught the Minneapolis police to kneel on people's necks, it's certainly reasonable to bring them up in a conversation about brutality by security forces, which is essentially what happened. The idea that Peake means to imply that Israel is in some way causally responsible for George Floyd's death seems pretty far fetched to me, the fact that her off the cuff remarks could be interpreted in that way if you really wanted to notwithstanding.

As I said before, I can understand why Starmer has to act to avoid the wrath of disingenuous conservatives and idiots, but you don't have to be one of the idiots.
Maxine Peake is free to say whatever she likes, including randomly imagining links between the world's only Jewish state and the globally notorious murder of a black man by police. Regardless of whether or not she meant it to be, that is somehow loading partial responsibility for something far, far away, onto a nation which just so happens to have a lot of Jews in it, without evidence, and is an anti-semitic canard.

That, to my mind, is idiocy, but it is idiocy which is at least somewhat debatable.

The relevant idiocy, though, isn't that, it's the fact that Long-Bailey touched this story with a bargepole. Her choices included just not tweeting it at all*, tweeting it with something along the lines of "I think she's wrong on the point about Israel but otherwise I think she's an absolute belter" or doing what she did. She knows where the Labour party is on this, and yet she did it anyway. That's the idiocy.


*it raises the issue to me of why the f.ck politicians even bother with twitter - Christ, it's a f.cking binfire - but that's another argument for another time.
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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Fishnut » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:56 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:44 am

The relevant idiocy, though, isn't that, it's the fact that Long-Bailey touched this story with a bargepole. Her choices included just not tweeting it at all, tweeting it with something along the lines of "I think she's wrong on the point about Israel but otherwise I think she's an absolute belter" or doing what she did. She knows where the Labour party is on this, and yet she did it anyway. That's the idiocy.
This.

And as murmur pointed out, the piece had other problems too. Peake wasn't particularly complimentary to Starmer or to those voters who didn't vote Labour because of Corbyn*, voters Starmer is trying to bring back to the party. Sharing such a piece isn't exactly the smartest idea, even without the anti-Semitism.

* She also ignored the fact that there are constituencies where Labour aren't the viable alternative to the Conservatives: LibDems, SNP, Plaid Cymru etc are. Plus there are constituencies where it doesn't matter who you vote the Tories will still get in, so you might as well vote with your conscience.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:58 am

El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:44 am
Maxine Peake is free to say whatever she likes, including randomly imagining links between the world's only Jewish state and the globally notorious murder of a black man by police. Regardless of whether or not she meant it to be, that is somehow loading partial responsibility for something far, far away, onto a nation which just so happens to have a lot of Jews in it, without evidence, and is an anti-semitic canard.

That, to my mind, is idiocy, but it is idiocy which is at least somewhat debatable.

The relevant idiocy, though, isn't that, it's the fact that Long-Bailey touched this story with a bargepole. Her choices included just not tweeting it at all*, tweeting it with something along the lines of "I think she's wrong on the point about Israel but otherwise I think she's an absolute belter" or doing what she did. She knows where the Labour party is on this, and yet she did it anyway. That's the idiocy.


*it raises the issue to me of why the f.ck politicians even bother with twitter - Christ, it's a f.cking binfire - but that's another argument for another time.
Yes it's very poor judgement by Long-Bailey, and I understand why Starmer acted the way he did. Disingenuous conservatives and idiots will say that Peake forced Israel into a conversation about police brutality against a minority population, and that she sincerely meant to say that Israel was literally responsible for what happened to George Floyd, and they will say Long-Bailey is antisemitic for approving those sentiments. And it's true. They will say that, and Long-Bailey should have acted accordingly for the good of the party. But we don't have to be among the idiots.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Fishnut » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:04 am

secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:58 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:44 am
Maxine Peake is free to say whatever she likes, including randomly imagining links between the world's only Jewish state and the globally notorious murder of a black man by police. Regardless of whether or not she meant it to be, that is somehow loading partial responsibility for something far, far away, onto a nation which just so happens to have a lot of Jews in it, without evidence, and is an anti-semitic canard.

That, to my mind, is idiocy, but it is idiocy which is at least somewhat debatable.

The relevant idiocy, though, isn't that, it's the fact that Long-Bailey touched this story with a bargepole. Her choices included just not tweeting it at all*, tweeting it with something along the lines of "I think she's wrong on the point about Israel but otherwise I think she's an absolute belter" or doing what she did. She knows where the Labour party is on this, and yet she did it anyway. That's the idiocy.


*it raises the issue to me of why the f.ck politicians even bother with twitter - Christ, it's a f.cking binfire - but that's another argument for another time.
Yes it's very poor judgement by Long-Bailey, and I understand why Starmer acted the way he did. Disingenuous conservatives and idiots will say that Peake forced Israel into a conversation about police brutality against a minority population, and that she sincerely meant to say that Israel was literally responsible for what happened to George Floyd, and they will say Long-Bailey is antisemitic for approving those sentiments. And it's true. They will say that, and Long-Bailey should have acted accordingly for the good of the party. But we don't have to be among the idiots.
Could we stop with the "idiots" usage please. It's ableist (and therefore against forum rule 3) and lazy. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them an idiot.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by secret squirrel » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:08 am

Fishnut wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:04 am
Could we stop with the "idiots" usage please. It's ableist (and therefore against forum rule 3) and lazy. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make them an idiot.
I will not, and it is not.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Woodchopper » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:19 am

EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:36 am
secret squirrel wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:09 am
EACLucifer wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:33 am
It was a retweet of an article including an antisemitic canard.
The antisemitic canard of accusing Israel of doing the kind of thing they do in fact do but may not have done specifically on this occasion? The antisemitic canard of using Israel as a reference point for brutal oppression of a minority carried out under the banner of democracy?
The antisemitic canard of rushing to blame the world's only Jewish state for something done by non-Jews far away from Israel, yeah. There's been tiny amounts of cross training between US and Israeli police, and US police have also cross trained with a number of other countries police, and yet the article blames an unnamed "Israeli secret service", rather than, say, the French Gendarmerie.
I agree. Its the invocation Israeli secret services which, for me, pushes it over into being something with the hallmarks of a conspiracy theory. The suggestion that normal beat cops in places like Minnesota are receiving training on something as trivial as how to restrain a suspect by the likes of Mossad or Shin Bet is preposterous.

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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by Gentleman Jim » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:23 am

JQH wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:43 am
El Pollo Diablo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:30 am
JQH wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:13 pm
f.cking marvellous. Starmer has Johnson on the ropes in PMQs but RLB boots the ball into the back of her own net.
This is probably my favourite mixed metaphor I've spotted in the wild.
Pity I couldn't work a cricket metaphor in there too.
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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by lpm » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:24 am

Wait, I'm getting confused about time zones. Am I in 2015-19? That was when there were all the endless attempts at pretend antisemitism in Labour didn't exist. I thought it was 2020.

You are all a bunch of idiots for even talking about it.
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Re: Starmer sacks Long-Bailey

Post by jimbob » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:30 am

I'm willing to assume that retweeting Peake's article was initially a simple gaffe.

However, Starmer gave her a chance to rectify this.

Her refusal to neither apologise properly* nor to delete the tweet, says that she cannot see how vulnerable Labour is to accusations of antisemitism.

EVEN IF SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS RIGHT, SHE SHOULD STILL HAVE BEEN CAREFUL, POLITICS ISN'T FAIR

Her refusal to answer Starmer's calls for four hours afterwards made it clear that she was defying her leader, so her position in the shadow cabinet would have been untenable on that basis alone.


*A refreshingly old-fashioned concept after the last 10 years of government.
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation

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