US Police reform

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jimbob
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Re: US Police reform

Post by jimbob » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:41 pm

snoozeofreason wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:11 pm
jimbob wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:06 pm
Found it from Wikipedia:

https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf

I was wrong:
Thanks for that. The revised figures look just as disturbing as the original ones.
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Millennie Al
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Re: US Police reform

Post by Millennie Al » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:09 am

For comparison, the smallest police force in England is the City of Lindon police, which employs 756 officers to police an area with a population of about 9500 (but it's very exceptional in that it's a business district, so vastly more commute in to work). This force falls into the biggest size in the table above, "250 or more". It's hard to see how such tiny police forces as there are in the USA can be sensible. For anything other than the most common police work they must need to call in external specialists, which is surely very inefficient.
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Re: US Police reform

Post by Bird on a Fire » Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:05 am

I've noticed that US cop shows always inside loads of willy-waving about jurisdictional issues. Obviously TV isn't 100% accurate but I wonder if that's grounded in reality.
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jdc
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Re: US Police reform

Post by jdc » Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:38 pm

Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:05 am
I've noticed that US cop shows always inside loads of willy-waving about jurisdictional issues. Obviously TV isn't 100% accurate but I wonder if that's grounded in reality.
It does seem to be a bit messy, with shared/overlapping jurisdiction and the various different categories of law enforcement (federal, state, county, municipal, other). This highlights Virginia as an exception to the norm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enfor ... ted_States
The Commonwealth of Virginia does not have overlapping county and city jurisdictions, whereas in most other states, municipalities generally fall within (and share jurisdiction and many other governmental responsibilities with) one (or more) county(ies). In Virginia, governmental power flows down from the state (or in Virginia's case, commonwealth) directly to either a county or an independent city. Thus, policing in Virginia is more streamlined: the county sheriff's office/department or county police department does not overlap with an independent city police department.
I don't think this is the one I was thinking of, but here's an example of two Detroit precincts trying to fight the war on drugs and ending up fighting each other. If a single police department gets into this sort of mess, I imagine two separate departments could have all sorts of fun. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/detroi ... gone-wrong

I also read something about occasional tension between police and firefighters, probably this: https://www.firehouse.com/leadership/ar ... -in-charge

Given the attractiveness of police work to power-tripping bellends and the lack of clarity over who has jurisdiction where (or when), I'd be pretty surprised if there wasn't a fair amount of willy-waving over jurisdiction.

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jimbob
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Re: US Police reform

Post by jimbob » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:38 pm

jdc wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:38 pm
Bird on a Fire wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:05 am
I've noticed that US cop shows always inside loads of willy-waving about jurisdictional issues. Obviously TV isn't 100% accurate but I wonder if that's grounded in reality.
It does seem to be a bit messy, with shared/overlapping jurisdiction and the various different categories of law enforcement (federal, state, county, municipal, other). This highlights Virginia as an exception to the norm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enfor ... ted_States
The Commonwealth of Virginia does not have overlapping county and city jurisdictions, whereas in most other states, municipalities generally fall within (and share jurisdiction and many other governmental responsibilities with) one (or more) county(ies). In Virginia, governmental power flows down from the state (or in Virginia's case, commonwealth) directly to either a county or an independent city. Thus, policing in Virginia is more streamlined: the county sheriff's office/department or county police department does not overlap with an independent city police department.
I don't think this is the one I was thinking of, but here's an example of two Detroit precincts trying to fight the war on drugs and ending up fighting each other. If a single police department gets into this sort of mess, I imagine two separate departments could have all sorts of fun. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/detroi ... gone-wrong

I also read something about occasional tension between police and firefighters, probably this: https://www.firehouse.com/leadership/ar ... -in-charge

Given the attractiveness of police work to power-tripping bellends and the lack of clarity over who has jurisdiction where (or when), I'd be pretty surprised if there wasn't a fair amount of willy-waving over jurisdiction.
It's not just the police. It's the associated municipal justice systems attached to that.

Imagine if parish councils could impose jail time?

For example the US DoJ report into Ferguson and its courts (as well as the Police department)

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/f ... report.pdf (PDF)
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Re: US Police reform

Post by OneOffDave » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:13 am

Millennie Al wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:09 am
For comparison, the smallest police force in England is the City of Lindon police, which employs 756 officers to police an area with a population of about 9500 (but it's very exceptional in that it's a business district, so vastly more commute in to work). This force falls into the biggest size in the table above, "250 or more". It's hard to see how such tiny police forces as there are in the USA can be sensible. For anything other than the most common police work they must need to call in external specialists, which is surely very inefficient.
CoLP also host a few national teams for more 'white collar' and art crimes too. They have an agreement with the Met that enables officers from one to direct coppers from the other for events etc and the working is much more joint than it's ever been. I was on their Independent Advisory Group for a couple of years

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Re: US Police reform

Post by Little waster » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:18 pm

So ...

... being in the vague proximity of an unrelated domestic argument = getting shot multiple times in the back

... opening up with a AR-15 into a crowd of people, killing two and wounding one = being told to leave the area, oh and "do you need any water, we really appreciate the job you are doing"

That's good to know. I wonder if we combine our hivemind we can figure out what is the key difference between the perpetrator in both scenarios?
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Re: US Police reform

Post by bmforre » Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:56 pm

Little waster wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:18 pm
So ...

... being in the vague proximity of an unrelated domestic argument = getting shot multiple times in the back

... opening up with a AR-15 into a crowd of people, killing two and wounding one = being told to leave the area, oh and "do you need any water, we really appreciate the job you are doing"

That's good to know. I wonder if we combine our hivemind we can figure out what is the key difference between the perpetrator in both scenarios?
Surely the one carrying a weapon characteristic of a well-regulated militia is showing proper Constitutional spirit ready to defend the Flag. The other going half-naked* and having a knife in his car is clearly not well-regulated thus a danger and must be made incapable of causing harm.

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Little waster
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Re: US Police reform

Post by Little waster » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:43 am

Suspect in Portland killing of far-right protester 'shot dead' by US marshals

Details are still coming in but once again we have the stark contrast between US LEA's kid-gloves approach to the far-right and the "let god sort them out" approach to AntiFA.

For those who haven't been following it closely, Rittenhouse's actions are being rationalised on the basis the third (and only third) person he shot was in apparent self-defence which is the exact same defence Reinoehl was putting forward for the person he killed.

Again Rittenhouse was openly armed and had only just stopped firing, while Reinoehl "appeared to be armed" wanted for a crime he did five days earlier. Which of the two was more obviously an immediate risk to the public?
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Gfamily
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Re: US Police reform

Post by Gfamily » Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:47 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54041549

tl;dr He was distressed and running away, so we shot him.
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