Yes, they're worsesnoozeofreason wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:11 pmThanks for that. The revised figures look just as disturbing as the original ones.jimbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:06 pmFound it from Wikipedia:
https://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf
I was wrong:
US Police reform
Re: US Police reform
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
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Re: US Police reform
For comparison, the smallest police force in England is the City of Lindon police, which employs 756 officers to police an area with a population of about 9500 (but it's very exceptional in that it's a business district, so vastly more commute in to work). This force falls into the biggest size in the table above, "250 or more". It's hard to see how such tiny police forces as there are in the USA can be sensible. For anything other than the most common police work they must need to call in external specialists, which is surely very inefficient.
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Re: US Police reform
I've noticed that US cop shows always inside loads of willy-waving about jurisdictional issues. Obviously TV isn't 100% accurate but I wonder if that's grounded in reality.
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Re: US Police reform
It does seem to be a bit messy, with shared/overlapping jurisdiction and the various different categories of law enforcement (federal, state, county, municipal, other). This highlights Virginia as an exception to the norm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enfor ... ted_StatesBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:05 amI've noticed that US cop shows always inside loads of willy-waving about jurisdictional issues. Obviously TV isn't 100% accurate but I wonder if that's grounded in reality.
I don't think this is the one I was thinking of, but here's an example of two Detroit precincts trying to fight the war on drugs and ending up fighting each other. If a single police department gets into this sort of mess, I imagine two separate departments could have all sorts of fun. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/detroi ... gone-wrongThe Commonwealth of Virginia does not have overlapping county and city jurisdictions, whereas in most other states, municipalities generally fall within (and share jurisdiction and many other governmental responsibilities with) one (or more) county(ies). In Virginia, governmental power flows down from the state (or in Virginia's case, commonwealth) directly to either a county or an independent city. Thus, policing in Virginia is more streamlined: the county sheriff's office/department or county police department does not overlap with an independent city police department.
I also read something about occasional tension between police and firefighters, probably this: https://www.firehouse.com/leadership/ar ... -in-charge
Given the attractiveness of police work to power-tripping bellends and the lack of clarity over who has jurisdiction where (or when), I'd be pretty surprised if there wasn't a fair amount of willy-waving over jurisdiction.
Re: US Police reform
It's not just the police. It's the associated municipal justice systems attached to that.jdc wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:38 pmIt does seem to be a bit messy, with shared/overlapping jurisdiction and the various different categories of law enforcement (federal, state, county, municipal, other). This highlights Virginia as an exception to the norm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enfor ... ted_StatesBird on a Fire wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:05 amI've noticed that US cop shows always inside loads of willy-waving about jurisdictional issues. Obviously TV isn't 100% accurate but I wonder if that's grounded in reality.
I don't think this is the one I was thinking of, but here's an example of two Detroit precincts trying to fight the war on drugs and ending up fighting each other. If a single police department gets into this sort of mess, I imagine two separate departments could have all sorts of fun. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/detroi ... gone-wrongThe Commonwealth of Virginia does not have overlapping county and city jurisdictions, whereas in most other states, municipalities generally fall within (and share jurisdiction and many other governmental responsibilities with) one (or more) county(ies). In Virginia, governmental power flows down from the state (or in Virginia's case, commonwealth) directly to either a county or an independent city. Thus, policing in Virginia is more streamlined: the county sheriff's office/department or county police department does not overlap with an independent city police department.
I also read something about occasional tension between police and firefighters, probably this: https://www.firehouse.com/leadership/ar ... -in-charge
Given the attractiveness of police work to power-tripping bellends and the lack of clarity over who has jurisdiction where (or when), I'd be pretty surprised if there wasn't a fair amount of willy-waving over jurisdiction.
Imagine if parish councils could impose jail time?
For example the US DoJ report into Ferguson and its courts (as well as the Police department)
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/f ... report.pdf (PDF)
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
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Re: US Police reform
CoLP also host a few national teams for more 'white collar' and art crimes too. They have an agreement with the Met that enables officers from one to direct coppers from the other for events etc and the working is much more joint than it's ever been. I was on their Independent Advisory Group for a couple of yearsMillennie Al wrote: ↑Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:09 amFor comparison, the smallest police force in England is the City of Lindon police, which employs 756 officers to police an area with a population of about 9500 (but it's very exceptional in that it's a business district, so vastly more commute in to work). This force falls into the biggest size in the table above, "250 or more". It's hard to see how such tiny police forces as there are in the USA can be sensible. For anything other than the most common police work they must need to call in external specialists, which is surely very inefficient.
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Re: US Police reform
So ...
... being in the vague proximity of an unrelated domestic argument = getting shot multiple times in the back
... opening up with a AR-15 into a crowd of people, killing two and wounding one = being told to leave the area, oh and "do you need any water, we really appreciate the job you are doing"
That's good to know. I wonder if we combine our hivemind we can figure out what is the key difference between the perpetrator in both scenarios?
... being in the vague proximity of an unrelated domestic argument = getting shot multiple times in the back
... opening up with a AR-15 into a crowd of people, killing two and wounding one = being told to leave the area, oh and "do you need any water, we really appreciate the job you are doing"
That's good to know. I wonder if we combine our hivemind we can figure out what is the key difference between the perpetrator in both scenarios?
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
Re: US Police reform
Surely the one carrying a weapon characteristic of a well-regulated militia is showing proper Constitutional spirit ready to defend the Flag. The other going half-naked* and having a knife in his car is clearly not well-regulated thus a danger and must be made incapable of causing harm.Little waster wrote: ↑Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:18 pmSo ...
... being in the vague proximity of an unrelated domestic argument = getting shot multiple times in the back
... opening up with a AR-15 into a crowd of people, killing two and wounding one = being told to leave the area, oh and "do you need any water, we really appreciate the job you are doing"
That's good to know. I wonder if we combine our hivemind we can figure out what is the key difference between the perpetrator in both scenarios?
* armless Tshirt. Frightening.
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Re: US Police reform
Suspect in Portland killing of far-right protester 'shot dead' by US marshals
Details are still coming in but once again we have the stark contrast between US LEA's kid-gloves approach to the far-right and the "let god sort them out" approach to AntiFA.
For those who haven't been following it closely, Rittenhouse's actions are being rationalised on the basis the third (and only third) person he shot was in apparent self-defence which is the exact same defence Reinoehl was putting forward for the person he killed.
Again Rittenhouse was openly armed and had only just stopped firing, while Reinoehl "appeared to be armed" wanted for a crime he did five days earlier. Which of the two was more obviously an immediate risk to the public?
Details are still coming in but once again we have the stark contrast between US LEA's kid-gloves approach to the far-right and the "let god sort them out" approach to AntiFA.
For those who haven't been following it closely, Rittenhouse's actions are being rationalised on the basis the third (and only third) person he shot was in apparent self-defence which is the exact same defence Reinoehl was putting forward for the person he killed.
Again Rittenhouse was openly armed and had only just stopped firing, while Reinoehl "appeared to be armed" wanted for a crime he did five days earlier. Which of the two was more obviously an immediate risk to the public?
This place is not a place of honor, no highly esteemed deed is commemorated here, nothing valued is here.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
What is here was dangerous and repulsive to us.
This place is best shunned and left uninhabited.
Re: US Police reform
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54041549
tl;dr He was distressed and running away, so we shot him.
tl;dr He was distressed and running away, so we shot him.
My avatar was a scientific result that was later found to be 'mistaken' - I rarely claim to be 100% correct
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
ETA 5/8/20: I've been advised that the result was correct, it was the initial interpretation that needed to be withdrawn
Meta? I'd say so!
Re: US Police reform
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justi ... y-atlanta/
Yes it's only one person's account but worth investigationIt made me very curious. So on my own time—I live in Atlanta, I live in the zone I policed, which is super rare—I drove over there and had a conversation with some people. I was like: “Hey, this is what I’m being asked to do. Why do you think that is? What’s going on?”
A homeowner in the area was very frank with me. He said the guys who own Bedford Pines got their tax bill last year, and their taxes were assessed based on all the gentrification that’s happening in the area. And so they wanted to move everybody out of these apartments and knock ’em down and rebuild these nice expensive apartments and the government said no. And so then they said, “Well, that’s ok, we’ll just increase the rent.” They tried to increase the rent and the Section 8 guys came back out and said, “No, you can’t do that either.”
The only way you can evict or do anything like that is if the person who owns the apartment is convicted of a felony. So the Bedford Pines guys just went to the police department and said: “We want you to police in here, and we’re going to give you a section of Bedford Pines to actually have office space. And I want you to lock up as many people as possible so we can make these apartments vacant and we can knock ’em down.”
Have you considered stupidity as an explanation
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Re: US Police reform
having that swing is a necessary but not sufficient condition for it meaning a thing
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Re: US Police reform
I really don’t know where to put this thread but you really need to read it all the way through https://twitter.com/speechboy71/status/ ... Wef2bNtfHQ
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Re: US Police reform
This police video starts bad and gets worse. Watch all the way through with the sound up. More details in rest of thread.
https://twitter.com/attorneycrump/statu ... 4cGzSrEe_Q
https://twitter.com/attorneycrump/statu ... 4cGzSrEe_Q
I’ve decided I should be on the pardon list if that’s still in the works
Re: US Police reform
Wow - that was all so avoidable... by all parties (although it shouldn't be contingent on the captive to protect themselves)Stranger Mouse wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:04 pmThis police video starts bad and gets worse. Watch all the way through with the sound up. More details in rest of thread.
https://twitter.com/attorneycrump/statu ... 4cGzSrEe_Q
You can't polish a turd...
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html
unless its Lion or Osterich poo... http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... -turd.html
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Re: US Police reform
The first article seems to be spot on. I would add that in rural areas, it is common to have such police attitudes extended to everyone they pull over.Woodchopper wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:31 amA good article on the extent of the problem within US police forces.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... orge-floyd
Here’s a striking example of the thinking highlighted in the first part of the above article. It’s by someone who is a prominent police trainer. https://www.policeone.com/police-produc ... hwNg3douX/
If people think like that it’s not hard to imagine why they’d kill first and not bother to ask questions.
Before any of the Brits are tempted to think that their police aren’t like that, some of the descriptions of US policing as an occupation force seem remarkably similar to those of the RUC in Northern Ireland.
Example: There are few to no black ppl in kerrvile* tx. Yet the police treat everyone as likely threats who are probably engaged in multiple felonies
This is the standard in a large number of small jurisdictions, and what you should expect if pulled over in small towns or rural counties in tx.
The second article illustrates the militarization of police and all the paraphernalia that goes with it.
*they were all run out of town on a rail, I'm sure. The hill country is by far NOT a friendly place.. And I spell kerrvile that way because it's accurate. It's part of the Kerr kounty kops, kendall kounty kops, komal kounty kops, you know, the kkk. But it's also shavano Park, Castle hills, Bandera county etc etc et al
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Re: US Police reform
Graphic video from Akron, Ohio. Guy seems to have been shot 60 times. Further down the thread it seems one of the cops almost accidentally shot two other cops
https://twitter.com/ninaturner/status/1 ... FztPZeLZjg
https://twitter.com/ninaturner/status/1 ... FztPZeLZjg
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Re: US Police reform
Not going well.
US law enforcement killed at least 1,176 people in 2022, making it the deadliest year on record for police violence since experts first started tracking the killings, a new data analysis reveals.
In 2022, 132 killings (11%) were cases in which no offense was alleged; 104 cases (9%) were mental health or welfare checks; 98 (8%) involved traffic violations; and 207 (18%) involved other allegations of nonviolent offenses. There were also 93 cases (8%) involving claims of a domestic disturbance and 128 (11%) where the person was allegedly seen with a weapon. Only 370 (31%) involved a potentially more serious situation, with an alleged violent crime.
What’s more, in 32% of cases last year, the person was fleeing before they were killed, generally running or driving off – cases in which experts say lethal force is unwarranted and also endangers the public.
Some suggested solutions:The racial disparities have also persisted: Black people were 24% of those killed last year, while making up only 13% of the population. From 2013 to 2022, Black residents were three times more likely to be killed by US police than white people. The inequality is particularly severe in some cities, including Minneapolis where police have killed Black residents at a rate 28 times higher than white residents, and Chicago, where the rate was 25 times higher, Mapping Police Violence reported.
Sinyangwe noted a Denver program where clinicians and medics have responded to thousands of mental health calls instead of police, and have not had to call police for backup. Some cities have restricted traffic stops for minor violations. And California has decriminalized jaywalking and other minor infractions that advocates say have no relation to public safety but are used to profile certain communities.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... umber-2022The consistent numbers year after year make clear that “broad systemic change” is necessary to prevent these killings, said Dr Elizabeth Jordie Davies, a Johns Hopkins postdoctoral fellow and expert on social movements. While there have been growing calls to defund police, leaders of both political parties have advocated the opposite – pushing for the expansion of law enforcement, she said.
“There’s a continual commitment to using violence to control people and manage problems in this country. And as we keep giving police more money and power, we’ll continue to see more police violence.”
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Re: US Police reform
On Britain rather than the US, this may be of interest.
https://ifs.org.uk/sites/default/files/ ... y-cuts.pdfPolice Infrastructure, Police Performance, and Crime: Evidence from Austerity Cuts
Elisa Facchetti
April 2024
Abstract
Utilizing newly compiled granular data on 7 million criminal incidents within a large police force, I examine the impact of police deployment on crime occurrence, reporting, police investigations, and overall citizens’ welfare. Focusing on a wave of austerity cuts which resulted in the closure of 70% of the police stations (while preserving total police strength), I show that the closures persistently increased violent crimes in census blocks near the defunct stations. Consistent with lower deterrence and police effectiveness, I document reduced clearance rates, reduced reporting of non-violent offences, and lower local house prices in the most deprived areas. The policy appears not to be cost-effective.